Talk:Kanohi

I don't know if I am following proper format, I don't use wikis much. Sorry if I am doing this wrong. The Kanohi article says "Masks would be painted with a coloring additive after being made, to differentiate power level. Matoran masks would have silver paint added to the top half, Noble, black paint, and Great masks would remain one full color. On Mata Nui, this coloring eventually faded away from sun exposure and lack of maintenance." without citation. Regarding paint: What is the source that the colors are paint? Searching "paint" on Greg Archives, the only relevant result is someone asking Greg if Kanohi can be painted, and Greg saying they could be but "why would you want to?" The only thing Greg said, as far as I know, regarding how the silver and black are applied, is that it is a "special process": https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page57#post2256 So I think the Kanohi article is wrong to say that they are painted. And regarding that the coloring faded away from sun exposure and lack of maintenance: What is the source of this? In 2004, Greg said the silver is gone due to fading (https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page52#post2053) but did not say that the fading is a result of sun exposure or lack of maintenance, and in 2007, Greg said the powerless Kanohi on Mata Nui never had silver tops (https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page205#post8189). I like the former explanation better because presumably most Matoran on Mata Nui wear the same Kanohi that they wore on Metru Nui, but that still doesn't explain the source for "sun exposure and lack of maintenance" as the cause of fading. Is there any evidence that Kanohi even require maintenance?(The preceding unsigned comment was made by Turaga of Force)

---

About my last edit, I have only one source from the OGD.
Q: Hey Greg, is it possible to fuse two kanohi so you get a combined mask power?
A: No, you would not get a dual Kanohi, you would get a completely different mask power.
And so, I do not have more sources for the rest of my edit. But I believe to remember that it is impossible to fuse two Kanohi together, because melting a Kanohi would make leak its power, among other things.
For me, the exceptions of the Mask of Light and Shadow, Aki or Rua are due to the fact that these masks are created during a fusion.
I also made this edit to make you react, if you had other sources about this or something else, to complete/deny/confirm this information.

Du7734 (talk) 21:11, 7 July 2014 (CEST)

I don't remember the context of the answer, but it's possible he read the first "Kanohi" as "Kanoka". -- I AM THE DOREK _{do not truffle with me} 02:15, 8 July 2014 (CEST)

Mahri Kanohi

In lieu of Greg's recent clarifications, do you think we might add a new section under "Forms" detailing the modified Kanohi worn by the Mahri? Greg has made a distinction between them and "regular" Kanohi, so I think the page ought to reflect that. I'd write it up myself, but I've got a jog scheduled. I'll check back in an hour or two. --Angel Bob (talk) 21:51, 19 September 2014 (CEST)

The idea has always sort of been around (seen on the Volitak page, specifically) but with the new awkward clarification, I suppose it could bear a mention. I think ideally it would just be on the individual pages, like Volitak is now, and not on the Kanohi page (although the whole image gallery of Kanohi could use a revamp as it is anyway). -- I AM THE DOREK _{do not truffle with me} 22:07, 19 September 2014 (CEST)

Kiril vs. Pehkui

Shouldn't the Pehkui have a "No Image" image as a no ordinary Pehkui has ever been seen as in canon Norik's Pehkui is shaped as a Kiril to honour an old hero who wore a Kiril? I will change it to reflect this. --TonksM (talk) 18:04, 20 April 2015 (CEST)

Infobox Image

Why is the Vahi the image in the infobox? It doesn't really represent Kanohi as a whole. I think this image would make a much better candidate:

--Gresh113, Gla"Toa"rian of Air 19:05, 26 October 2015 (CET)

I agree. -- -- Toa Jala ^Converse 07:26, 22 January 2016 (CET)

Matoran Noble Kanohi

I have a question; what happens to a Matoran that wears a Noble Kanohi (obviously powerless since is a Matoran) turns into a Toa? --BIONICLE 4EVER (talk) 04:03, 22 January 2016 (CET)

I've often wondered that myself. Since Matoran Kanohi are powerless (with very few exceptions), I assume that any Kanohi exposed to Toa Energy would transform into a Great Kanohi. Any Kanohi made from a Kanoka with a power level of 6 or lower results in a powerless Kanohi. So if you think about it, the only real difference between, say, Macku's mask and Balta's mask is the shape. So maybe the resulting mask would have the power of a Great Kanohi, but maybe the shape of a Noble Kanohi? Or perhaps the transformation would automatically change the shape. Either way, I'm certain the result would be a Great Kanohi; it just may not look like one. -- -- Toa Jala ^Converse 07:26, 22 January 2016 (CET)

But I'm just speculating. -- -- Toa Jala ^Converse 07:44, 22 January 2016 (CET)

Pehkui/Kiril

Under the Great Masks section, there is the "No Image Available" image for the Pehkui, despite the Great Kanohi's official depiction with Norik. Furthermore, for the Kiril, the chart shows the Noble incarnation of the mask, as opposed to a picture of the Great version we never got. I assume the Pehkui's lack of a visual representation is due to the presence of the Kiril and both masks' identical appearance, but it seems to me the Great Kiril image should be removed from the Great masks chart (that image is already in the Noble masks section) and the Pehkui image should be moved in. --777stairs (talk) 02:57, 7 May 2016 (CET)

We only have images from the Noble version of the Kiril. And Norik's Pehkui is in the shape of a Noble Kiril, but still a Pehkui. -- Surel-Nuva (Talk) 11:27, 27 August 2016 (CET)

Metru mask pictures

In the image table we have set up, those metru mask pictures we have are pretty cringeworthy, and I know we have better ones...Intelligence4 (talk) 04:43, 10 May 2016 (CET)

I'd be down, but the only real alternative would be images from the instruction manuals, which aren't face-on (and File:Rau Great.png looks pretty bad). Thoughts? -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 06:47, 7 June 2016 (CET)

Hmm, you're right those are pretty bad. I think they're better than the ones we have though - the only thing that bugs me about the instruction manual images is that they're colored so you can "see through" them. The fact that they're not face on shouldn't be an issue, I think. Are there really not any other images of the metru masks? O.O Intelligence4 (talk) 02:16, 16 June 2016 (CET)

Just went and looked at the [Rau] page, what about those info box images? Intelligence4 (talk) 02:18, 16 June 2016 (CET)

Matoran Mask Color

I'm not sure where this was said, perhaps the Metru Nui guide book? On this page, under "Mask Making", it says "Masks would be painted with a coloring additive after being made, to differentiate power level. Matoran masks would have silver paint added to the top half, Noble, black paint, and Great masks would remain one full color. Further; If Matoran masks were painted, Takua's mask changing color on its own would have stuck out like a soar thumb. Therefor; "Matoran masks, having no power, will not change color at all, making it necessary to paint them in their colors." is contridictary. ~ Wolk (talk) 11:55, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure where it was outlined, but I know it's why the 2004 Matoran sets had masks blended with silver, and Dume's mask was blended with black. At what point did Takua's mask change color? Master Inika ^(Talk) 17:47, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

The issue isn't with the Masks being lined with silver/black. The issue is the statement that was previously on the page saying Matoran masks are unable to change color depending on the wearer, instead remaining gray, and thus require to be painted. After Takua's mask broke in Metru Nui, he got his Pakari, which turned blue due to him subconsciously accessing his Av-Matoran camoflauge power. ~ Wolk (talk) 21:07, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

I think it's not that masks cannot change color, it's that they do not. Matoran masks won't change color when Matoran wear them normally. However Takua's changed since, like you said, he accessed his camouflage power. If anyone saw Takua put on the mask, they'd have known something was up, since if he were a Ta-Matoran, the mask would have stayed whatever color it was painted originally. (And presumably Takua didn't inquire too deeply into why his mask changed color.) -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 01:37, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

In that case we'd only seen Matoran wearing gray masks though. Were they painted, that paint would too have faded in the sunlight as well. If anyone can find a source for Matoran masks not changing color, be my guest. ~ Wolk (talk) 09:41, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't follow... afaik Matoran masks are painted. Presumably they were bleached on Mata Nui just like the Matoran's armor was. The bleaching didn't turn their armor gray though, it just made the armor brighter, so if the Matoran's masks were painted, I don't see why they would turn gray. Agreed though, a source one way or the other would be good. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 00:10, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

The first quote in this thread seems to imply that only the silver strip was painted on to indicate that the mask had no powers. Perhaps the matoran masks did change color based on the wearer? I agree, a source one way or another would be good. I think it's possible we've been making an assumption all this time. Intelligence4 (talk) 17:53, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

I just realised that Jaller's mask is gray in the Ussanui set (however, the mask has since been retconned to be a noble mask.) I'm not sure where the bleach thing originates, it's not a thing I've heard about. ~ Wolk (talk) 08:37, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

i think this was in either a series book or a guide somewhere, I'll check and get back to you tomorrow. --"On the bounce and on the numbers, boys!!" ^{~Prof. Srlojohn} 16:50, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

I think Greg bounced back and forth on whether Kanohi masks' colors are determined by the wearer or just paint. We'll have to dive in Greg's quotes for this, but iirc the last change he made was that Matoran masks are grey when unworn and changes color depending on the wearer, thus making the Ussanui set depiction canon over the movie. The only paint that was applied was on Metru Nui where they differentiate mask classes.~Mattym

Yeah i'll start digging through my book collection and i'll have the answer in a few days.

Greg said that in his opinion, Matoran masks are colored even when unworn. However, he said this is his opinion, he did not say it is fact. I clearly remember reading this within the last week on the Greg archives website but I can't find the post(s) now. However, in other posts, he said most masks are gray when unworn.

June 2003: Hau on Ussanui is gray because it is unworn https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page9#post324

April 2004: "Under ordinary circumstances, a mask is gray when not being worn and turns color when put on. " https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page33#post1300

May 2004: "Every mask, when not being worn, is gray. They don't take on a color until a Toa, Turaga or Matoran puts them on. So Toa don't have masks that are "their own" -- they have masks they have found that change to their color when they put them on. " https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page34#post1359

January 2005: "They [mask makers] don't [choose mask colors]. With very few exceptions, masks are gray when they are created. They don't take on a color until someone puts them on. So, for example, Nokama would be wearing a Kaukau mask, and it would be blue -- but if she takes it off and gives it to Vakama, it will turn red when he puts it on." https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page78#post3086

May 2006: Greg forgot saying that his opinion was that Matoran masks are colored when unworn: https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page133#post5304

May 2006: Greg specifying that the silver top is painted on [however, he did previously say that his opinion is that Matoran masks are colored when unworn, so he apparently DID forget that]: https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page135#post5381

August 2007: "Masks in their natural (unworn) state are gray. They change color to match the color of the being who wears them as a natural property of protodermis. The only exceptions we have seen to this are the Vahi and the Ignika, which are Legendary masks and so in a different class. " https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page236#post9434 Turaga of Force (talk) 21:04, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Returning to this:

January 2004: Matoran masks turn silver when removed. https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page24#post925-line10-11

May 2004: The story team's feeling is that Matoran masks are colored when they are produced, and don't change color. https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page36#post1427-line11-12

September 2004: Greg is unsure if Matoran masks are grey when not worn. https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page52#post2053-line25,37

October 2004: "The silver top is evident even when the mask is not being worn. Masks are not colored by mask makers, in general, the adding of the silver is a special process. In a sense, the silver portions of the mask resist being colored when worn." https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page57#post2256-line9,19

October 2006: All masks except legendary Kanohi are grey when not worn. https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page157#post6278

July 2014: Takua's mask turned blue because the color had not been locked in. https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2013-2017/page362#post10523179-line2-3,6

Personally, I don't feel it makes much sense that they would be "dyed" for several reasons:

• Takua's mask changing color would stand out significantly.
• Jaller's mask in the Ussanui was doubtfully planned to be a Noble mask back then.
• The masks change color (just like the body parts do) both when the Matoran are diminished, and when they are rebuilt. For instance, Mamoru and Ahkmou. The "sun bleach" theory (so-far not supported by any quotes) really doesn't hold up in explaining those cases, or how brown becomes darker, or how only certain colors (or color regions) are affected. It only works if you're only looking at the Matoran as plain green, red, and blue. ~ Wolk (talk) 15:59, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

I have several comments on this.

• I think the new quote citing powerless masks needing coloring should be considered the most reputable because it is the only one coming from a wider story team, instead of just Greg alone, who was unsure of the answer.
• I do not find it at all doubtfull that Jaller's mask was considered as noble mask by the time Ussanui came out. It was a late 2003 set tied in to the movie. 2004 was already fleshed out by that point and 2nd movie was well into development, so it shouldn't be surprising everyone was onboard with the idea. Greg even teased many times in late 2003 that we would learn about Lhii and his relationship with Jaller in 2004. Also there is this https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page9#post324-line1-2 Lastly to this point, there is also an out of universe reason for the Hau being gray - the set designers did not want to spoil the major plot of the movie (just like Takua Nuva/Takanuva name alteration).
• The quote about Takua's mask color "not being locked in" is likely a misremembering/blunder by Greg, because it does not make sense even under the assumption that Matoran masks can auto-change. If they did, the mask wouldn't turn blue, it would turn to fit his color scheme as that is the proper function. Now I expect someone to point out that there are some other Matoran with mask colors not really fitting their color schemes, but the inability to change color would explain all of these instances - and it in fact does: https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page35#post1396-line1,11 All of the quotes talking about the mechanics of color change refer to powered masks only.
• We have visual sources confirming Matoran masks are indeed colored when not being worn: Metru CDs (powerless masks in the reclamation yard), MNOG and Mata Nui animations (Lewa's Miru is gray when unworn, but Chronicler's company's masks and Tamaru's mask remain colored when removed).--ToaKebaka (talk) 18:17, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Silver Kanohi

Does anyone know what the point was of the silver Kanohi from the old mask packs? I though there was only supposed to be one silver Kanohi for Wairuha? --Shadowfax (talk) 19:02, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Well, as far as I know, the silver masks meant to represent the unworn/powerless masks. — Surel—Nuva _(Talk) 21:53, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

I thought they were supposed to have three powers each as opposed to the Golden Masks' six, as in the Silver Hau, Kakama, and Pakari have the powers of all three, and the Silver Kaukau, Akaku, and Miru have the powers of all three. It was clearly non-canon, so it's not a big deal anyway. --Master Inika ^(Talk) 03:44, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

OK, that's what I thought. Gold represented all six masks, and Silver was just three masks. It's kinda weird that part never really stuck in the canon. Should we make a note about it somewhere? --Shadowfax (talk) 19:46, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

If anyone can find a source stating that was the purpose of the silver Kanohi, then yes? It doesn't seem like a good idea to add something with "citation needed." ~ Wolk (talk) 09:27, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't know where we could find something like that. It would have to be really old BIONICLE material (maybe a catalogue or manual from '02?), and the info probably wasn't that common, if it the silver Kanohi stuff was set aside in continuity. But I think it's important we find a source. --Shadowfax (talk) 15:55, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the silver Kanohi were always (or at least, since 2001) meant to represent the masks when they weren't being worn. Comic #3 shows Lewa's Miru turn silver when it comes off, and there's a 2001 promo render of Gali holding a silver Pakari she just retrieved. As far as I know, the only silver mask with the power of 3 masks is the Rua, which was represented in set form by the chrome Hau, not by any of the silver Kanohi from mask packs. - TuragaNuva 04:20, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Unworn masks are gray. Silver masks have 3 powers. https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page174#post6931-line40,44,48-49,59-60(The preceding unsigned comment was made by Turaga of Force)

I was always under the impression that silver, at least in the set context (not the story context) was supposed to be three-powers, but it's one of those old things that we'd have a bit of difficulty sourcing. The silver Kanohi Nuva were definitely the "powerless" vbersions. -- Dorek _Talk 23:29, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

I remember that the Toa Nuva's masks turned silver (or partly silver, depending on the depiction) when they lost their elemental powers. In BIONICLE Heroes, it's said that a silver Kanohi is uncharged with elemental energy, either from not being worn or being worn by someone with no elemental powers. -- -- Toa Jala ^Converse 03:12, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

Because of recent update on Kanohi page, I have to revive this discussion. I feel strongly that all the stufff about silver kanohi having 3 powers should be "note-only" information, and the primary text on page should say it represents unworn Kanohi and/or Kanohi Rua. The 3 power silver mask info comes exclusively from Greg, while all of the published material says/shows them to be unworn masks: Comics, style guide, CDs, CG art, Bionicle heroes etc. The other purpose is them representing Kanohi Rua as evidenced by Bohrok Swarm CD and bionicle.com.--ToaKebaka (talk) 16:31, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

I am almost certain the design manual and CD are not referring to the mask pack Kanohi. They're from too early for that. In any case; I would agree that it belongs in the trivia, and would even say that we should make no assertion as to what the masks in the set represent, just present the three options given. ~ Wolk (talk) 18:18, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Is in necessary for it to refer to the physical product from 2002? What I mean by this, even the golden masks are present in these sources and we knew about htem from the start, yet the product only became available in 2002. And the silver masks are shown visually as representation of unworn masks. For both of these, concept and visual were established at least in 2000/2001 and made into plastic in 2002.--ToaKebaka (talk) 18:25, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Not necessarily, but I think it's a lot more difficult to say with certainty that the masks were introduced into the sets to serve that role when the only thing that makes that connection is BIONICLE Heroes, unlike the Golden Kanohi. ~ Wolk (talk) 18:28, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

What about the other sources I mentioned aside from the BIONICLE Heroes (and why wouldn't that source be enough anyway)? We see the silver masks in those and they are described as unworn Kanohi. I can't recall so please remind me, but BIONICLE Heroes references physical product in the bios doesn't it? I think these are two different discussions then: 1) what are silver kanohi in the story, 2) which of the story intepretations does the physical product represent. I am only talking about the 1st.--ToaKebaka (talk) 18:38, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

If it's only a matter of what silver Kanohi are in the story, then I don't think there is anything mutually exclusive between Aki/Rua, unworn Kanohi, and 3-power concepts. They're all silver (or gray). The Rua being titled the Silver Mask is no more a problem than the Aki being the Golden Mask, and the unworn ones are only described as silver/gray descriptively, not as a title. (Heroes titles them Protodermic Kanohi, the Design Manual says Unused Kanohi.) ~ Wolk (talk) 19:19, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

As for the product side, I believe based on the 2002 marketing, both the golden and silver masks represent two different things in plastic: golden = Aki/Golden Kanohi; silver = Rua/unworn masks. The fact that Aki and Rua can look like any of the six Mata masks is presented in Bohrok Swarms Promo CD and on bionicle.com and I have discussed this in Rua talk page The whole stuff about 3 power silver masks being a scrapped concept I find somewhat suspicious - it was never mentioned in any promotional material or internal document, yet the Rua/unworn mask identity were. And even it if was a fleeting idea mentioned on some meeting, why assign it to a product released year after the whole quest to get golden kanohi (which silver kanohi would have been a 50% achievement of) was already finished? The gold and silver masks being found in krana packs is a way of giving plastic representation to concepts laid out in 2001, why shoehorn in a brand new retroactive concept that is never mentioned anywhere anyways? I'm not sure if we can trust Greg on this one, it does not add up from what I can see.--ToaKebaka (talk) 20:00, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

The unworn masks don't appear in 2002 marketing, only in 2001 marketing afaik? As for why the concept exists, I think Greg made that clear -- It's just some idea that marketing made up that didn't end up being used, and Greg even mentions that it's not in the story bible. Additionally, no marketing material I've found actually mentions the gold masks being the Golden Kanohi either (besides Heroes). All of the 02-03 material seems to indicate they're the Rua/Aki. But the gold Kanohi were surely made to be the golden masks, so maybe wires were getting crossed between teams?

Are the silver masks "canon"? I don't know, but they never actually existed. As I said initially, I'd be fine with moving them back into Trivia. ~ Wolk (talk) 21:21, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Alright then, I'm fine with it being in the trivia section. There probably isn't much more we can figure out unless more information is found regarding the chronology of ideas on those masks.--ToaKebaka (talk) 21:25, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

FWIW, Greg says he saw the Silver Masks as separate from gray powerless masks, citing the existence of silver Kanohi as a separate object. I haven't seen any Greg quotes where their existence is in dispute, and in one Greg does confirm that they are canon, to some degree or another. I'd argue, at any rate, that they have more of a basis in canon than the Hordika Combat Staffs which have a full page despite being absent in other media or story. The current position is preferable for me imo. --Gonel (talk) 03:14, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

The problem I have with that quote is that Greg is merely expressing his personal opinion, he even says as much, but the materials from 2001 clearly show silver masks. And I wouldn't say silver masks in the context of being 3 power Kanohi had more presence than combat staffs - those had a dedicated CG animation, while silver Kanohi had none, not a single mention or showing.--ToaKebaka (talk) 05:59, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

The Ussanui also depicts unworn Kanohi as gray, and that might be the only time that is undisputably one :) ~ Wolk (talk) 12:28, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

While that's a good point, I would point out that the same color is used for "active" color scheme of other characters such as Turaga Whenua. Silver masks from krana packs have a unique color not seen in any other place or color scheme, so it being dedicated to blank/neutral unworn masks that are not adapting their color to anyone's color scheme, seems more appropriate. CG, comics and flash animations always make the unworn Kanohi lighter gray/silver than dark gray lego color of Whenua. As to why the Hau is dark gray in the set, well for one it is to avoid a movie spoiler of Jaller's death.--ToaKebaka (talk) 20:05, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

True. I suppose the Silver Kanohi Nuva should also fall under the same banner, per the description in Heroes, so that's three vastly different set depictions in two years. But then, the same silver is used for Metrutoran masks but that silver is supposedly visually distinct :P Not complicated at all. ~ Wolk (talk) 11:52, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Elemental Masks

Greg says that since kanoka of all elements(besides sand) can exist, that they form masks of all elements. (Source #13) While we shouldn't make a page for them, as they are only theoretical, would adding those masks to the list be possible? If not, could I at least add a mention of them? Firespitter Lhii (talk) 16:56, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Edit- I see they're mentioned in trivia. But could and should they be added to the list, or are theoretical items not included in lists.Firespitter Lhii (talk) 16:56, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Actually all of them are listed on the Kanohi/Other Kanohi page right now.--Surel (Talk) 19:23, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Fusion Masks

In regards to the Aki, Rua, and tangentially, the Mask of Light & Shadow.

I've never seen any of these called Great Masks, rather the Aki is the Golden Mask of Valor, and the Rua the Silver Mask of Wisdom. Additionally, they contain multiple powers, more akin to the Golden Masks... Basically, what I'm getting at is, would it be more suitable to move them to their own category as fused masks? ~ Wolk (talk) 17:20, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

The Aki/Rua Nuva do make this a bit trickier though. Tangentially, the "Nuva" that we know are Great Masks, as Nuva masks can also exist as Nobles, which suggests they instead should be listed as a subsection of Great Masks... There is also the question in the back of my head of what masks the Turaga and Matoran Kaita/Nui wear... Given that Jaller wears a noble and the others powerless masks, that pretty much also confirms masks of differing power levels can fuse, suggesting fusion masks should be regarded as outside of that system. Also, maybe the "Types" and "Known Kanohi" sections should be merged? Or have the preface information from the Known Kanohi section moved up to the Types section, as they're just repeating the same section. This would make Known Kanohi purely a gallery. Any objection? ~ Wolk (talk) 02:10, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

It's said that Noble versions of the Aki and Rua can't exist. If Kanohi Kaita aren't considered Great, then that would make sense, as they can't be thought of as Noble either. Going back to Wolk's question, suppose three Toa fused and one was wearing a Noble Mask? Would the resulting mask be Great or Noble? It's a pickle, and I think the most practical way to resolve it is to make a separate category for Fusion Masks (or Fused Masks, I think would sound better). -- Toa Jala ^Converse 06:12, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

My thought exactly. And we know it is possible for them to fuse based on the Matoran Nui Jaller was a part of. ~ Wolk (talk) 15:22, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

True, I'd forgotten about that Here's my sandbox for if we were to add a "Fused Kanohi" section. -- Toa Jala ^Converse 03:02, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

I think that works. Been working on a larger rewrite on my own sandbox but it's not ready yet and more radical, I suppose. The two things I'd note is that the colspan on the box next to the Mask of Scavenging needs to be increased to 5, and I'd remove 'Great' from the MoLight/Shadow. ~ Wolk (talk) 16:05, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Oh, that's where I went wrong with the coding! Thanks. I like your format better because it conveys information better. If there are no objections, I'll implement my section now. -- Toa Jala ^Converse 05:23, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Always on at a low level

This is something I've kinda touched on before, but I wanted to address the fundamental issue here.

We have several pages saying that certain Kanohi were stated to be "always on at a low level", but this doesn't work with Greg's statements that they require concentration to activate, and is therefore assumed to be incorrect. However, I don't think the two statements are contradictory, and even if they are, I think the story supports the idea of certain masks being on at a low level.

First, let's start with the crux of my argument: masks can be on at a low level, but then you can also concentrate on them to get a "regular level". This is why they're said to be always on "at a low level" and not just "always on". I wasn't sure whether I wanted to make this point, but then I stumbled upon a Greg quote that is basically saying what I just said. We also see this in the story; more on that in a bit.

So what masks are stated to be "always on at a low level"? There are seven of them, and they can be divided into three categories. The first is the Inika masks: the Elda, the Sanok, and the Suletu(shown in story). The second is the regular masks: the Arthron, the Rode, and the Mask of Clairvoyance. And the last is the fan content mask, the mask of Adaptation. It feels wrong to dismiss all seven claims as being incorrect; maybe one or two, but not seven. So let's address these in order.

First, the most contentious ones here, the Inika masks. Yes, the Inika masks are stated to be always on because of their organic nature. This quote, however, comes from 2015, and is prefaced by Greg saying "I think", so it should be taken with some hesitation. Every other quote says that the masks being organic just helped the Toa learn how to use their powers. There's even one quote, regarding the Calix, that clarifies that it was activated, just without Jaller realizing it. Moreover, I feel it's worth pointing out that the quotes saying that the Elda and Sanok are always on, do NOT say it's because of their organic nature, and the Elda quote even asks about inorganic Elda in the previous question. Greg does NOT say "Hahli's elda is always on because it's organic", he just says "the Elda is always on".

However, with all that said, uncertain quotes from 2015 should be taken with a grain of salt... if they contradict other material, which this one unfortunately doesn't. The only thing I can say is that Greg stated several non-organic masks also work this way. At best, it's a trivia point, maybe something along the lines of "while the Elda is stated to be always on at a low level, it is unknown if this is because of the mask's organic nature or if it is a trait of all Elda" and a similar point about the Sanok and Suletu.

Now let's move onto something (IMO) a bit less contentious: the non-organic masks. Both the Rode and the Mask of Clairvoyance have contradictory quotes. The Mask of Clairvoyance has a quote saying it has to be activated, another saying it is always on, and a third saying it cannot be activated. The Rode has a quote saying it is always on, and another saying it has to be activated. So let's look at the story to see what it suggests.

Starting with the Mask of Clairvoyance. There are two scenes where we see its power addressed. The first is Dwellers in Darkness, which many people cite as proof of it being activated, but this is not the case. We see Gaaki using it, it is already activated, and it isn't stated whether she activated it or it activated on its own. You could argue that the fact that she's standing off to the side implies that she conciously activated it; I could argue that they're in the middle of a battle, why would she activate such a debilitating mask power? But then you come to The Powers That Be, which makes it clear: "she regretted the fact that she had no real control of her Mask of Clairvoyance. It would give her a flash of the near future when it chose to, not at her bidding". This is pretty clear on how the mask works, and fits with the Greg quotes that it is always on at a low level and you cannot activate it. It also fits with Greg's quotes about the fact that Mask powers require concentration -- she is *forced* to focus on the mask's vision when it activates.

Then, there's the Rode. There's two uses of the Rode that support this theory. The first comes from Reign of Shadows: "He wondered if perhaps his mask, which could see through any deception, had been the difference between his escaping Makuta's trap and being lost in the fantasy forever." But Axonn never activates the Rode, so how could it have helped him in any way? Unless of course, it was always on at a low level. Now, the one issue I will admit here is that this is simply a guess from Axonn -- we don't know whether the mask helped him escape or not. But it is definitely worth considering that Axonn considers it as a possibility.

The second comes from Destiny War, and is cited as an example of him having to activate the mask, but I think it is a perfect example of the way Greg describes it in the quote from earlier. "Axonn did just that, calling on the powers of his Kanohi Rode, the Mask of Truth. To his surprise, it told him that his captive was indeed being honest". Notice that he activates it AFTER Krakua makes his claim. If it wasn't active before then, then how would it tell him Krakua wasn't lying? But if what Greg said is true, and he's just focusing on it specifically, then this scene makes sense: the mask already detected that Krakua wasn't lying, and Axonn was just checking to see if it detected any lies from Krakua.

Then there's the Arthron. Unfortunately, for it, the only thing we have is that it is always on at a low level. It's probably similar to the Rode, but that's purely speculation. The only thing I can say is that we see Jaller use it multiple times in the battle against Hydraxon and Maxilos, a fight where Jaller is getting beaten down left and right, so it would probably be hard for him to focus on using his mask. But again, still pure speculation. Fortunately, there's no Greg quotes contradicting this one, so it's fine. What we can say for certain: it has some low level ability, we just don't know what that is; and the user can focus on it to get its full ability.

Finally, there's the last Mask on this list: the Mask of Adaptation. This one wasn't written by Greg, but it was approved Greg. However, the part that was approved was that it operates like the Kraata power, and Bonesii later expanded on it. I'd be fine leaving this one as it is. An argument could be made that it could work as Bonesii described, because the Mask of Clairvoyance is stated to work similarly; but unlike the Mask of Clairvoyance, it isn't shown to draw your focus, so it actually does contradict the Greg quotes. It's far more of a grey area, especially since the Kraata power it is originally said to be based on works differently.

So, to recap, the pages that would be effected by this proposal: Mask of Clairvoyance, Rode, and Arthron, state that they are always on at a low level, and for the Mask of Clairvoyance and Rode, specify how they work/what happens when they are fully activated. Both the Rode and Mask of Clairvoyance should probably still have a note addressing the conflicting Greg quotes, though. Elda, Sanok, Suletu: maybe a trivia point, since it's ambiguous; or just leave those pages as they are. Mask of Adaptation(actually the "other Kanohi" page): rewrite the note a bit, since it being on at a low level wouldn't contradict Greg's quotes, but it automatically altering the wearer contradicts both Greg quotes and the way the Kraata power works.--Willess12 (talk) 00:38, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

You knew this would get my attention lol. So, I admit that the way some of the pages are worded on this is a little vague, maybe even misleading. I think there's a fundamental misconception about what it means to always on at a low level. For one, I think the behavior of the organic Inika masks is fundamentally different than what would be for inorganic masks. As you've pointed out already, some of the Inika masks are said to be always on due to being sentient. I still believe this to be the case, and let me explain why in further detail.

First, the quote you cite about them not helping with control doesn't refute this idea. In fact, I think it helps it. Greg right after says "what it did was enable them to start using the powers before they really knew how, since the masks acted off their thoughts initially." He attributes easy activating of the mask to the mask's thoughts, since the Inika didn't yet know how to activate it themselves (or turn it off as we also see). Although you are correct that the only explicit confirmation from Greg that their always being on is due to their sentience is from CwGF, I think there is strong implict confirmations of that before, such as with this answer. So in reality, these organic masks are not exceptions to the "Kanohi require willpower to activate" rule, but rather worked off of multiple willpowers, the user's and the mask's itself. If this is how this behavior and its cause is to be understood, then it makes no sense that it should apply to inorganic Kanohi, which do not have their own will. This, I think, is the first question we need to really answer, since it would also answer whether inorganic Kanohi can possibly be always on.

The biggest hurtle is answering why only some of the Inika masks are always on at a low level but not others. I think the quote you present about the Calix gives some useful insight. Greg says "he triggers the power without being aware of it, as these masks work a little differently than past masks have." So, all the masks' sentience did help the Inika more easily activate their powers (because, again, multiple wills), but it manifested slightly differently for each power, with some actually being always on at a low level.

Now, you do raise a good point about the wording of the Elda and Sanok quotes being generalized, rather than about Hahli's Elda or Hewkii's Sanok. However, one of the questions asks "is the Elda not able to be turned off like the Suletu?" We don't have confirmation whether an inorganic Suletu would also be always on, only that Kongu's organic one was. Yes, the question immediately before did specify inorganic Elda, but I hesitate to apply that to this question here as well. Also, while you are correct that those quotes don't say anything about the organic nature or their sentience, they also don't give any reason at all. They're just silent on the matter.

I think Greg quotes have been thoroughly exhausted from the many discussions about this topic already, so I want to take another look at the books. We have a unique situation with the Suletu, where we've actually seen its inorganic version be used in the story. The first is by Krakua, but unfortunately I don't think there's enough from him to reach a conclusion. But, there's also Takanuva:

"Before any could protest, he removed his Mask of Light and put on Hewkii's find. At first, nothing happened. Then Takanuva suddenly said, "I am not taking too many chances, Hahli."

"What?" said the Ga-Matoran. "What are you talking about?"

"You said I was taking a risk by putting this mask on. I heard you."

"I never said anything!" Hahli protested.

"She's telling the truth," said Hewkii. "Maybe it has something to do with the mask… Maybe it’s defective?"

"Or maybe it works just fine," said Jaller. "Hahli, be honest — what were you thinking when he put the mask on?"

The Ga-Matoran shrugged, obviously uncomfortable. "I was thinking… well… that we only have one Toa with us and he shouldn't be braving any unnecessary dangers."

"You heard her thoughts," Jaller said to Takanuva. "It's a Mask of Telepathy. It must have belonged to some other Toa who passed this way, who knows how long ago."

Takanuva, being a relatively experienced Toa at this point, certainly knows how to activate a mask power, even if he wasn't aware of what it did. If the inorganic Suletu was always on at a low level, I think he would've noticed that he didn't have to activate it, or that it would've still worked when he tried to deactivate it. Though he is experienced, he wouldn't have had experience with a mask like that. In fact, the pause when he first put the mask on ("At first, nothing happened.") could suggest that he was consciously activating it. Takanuva was seemingly able to tune in to Hahli's thoughts specifically, while Kongu was flooded with everyone's around him [1] (though it's possible this may have been due to his inexperience, but again, Takanuva wouldn't have been experienced with an always on mask either).

However, I do want to reiterate about the Mask of Clairvoyance, I doubt that it fits this category, as I already discussed on its talk page. "Always on at a low level" is a distinct effect different from the mask randomly activating on its own. I still don't understand how you can say TPTB fits with Greg's always on quote. You say TPTB is clear, and I would agree, but it clearly contradicts the quote. I mean, even by your own definition of what it means to be on at a low level, "masks can be on at a low level, but then you can also concentrate on them to get a 'regular level,'" would still make Clairvoyance an exception. Dag (talk) 02:09, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

"First, the quote you cite about them not helping with control doesn't refute this idea."

Funny you say that, considering that's one of the quotes I forgot to link to. That was actually a point I was going to make, but I realized that "Doesn't help with their control" doesn't mean that the mask doesn't activate on its own.

Regarding why some masks would be constantly on, while others wouldn't, I think it's down to the power of the mask. You wouldn't want to be constantly flying around at high speed, or constantly in spirit form, but being constantly a bit more accurate, a bit more agile, telepathic, or able to sense your objective, would be useful (even if Kongu is annoyed by it).

You make a very good point about the Inika masks, not necessarily being "always active" so much as "activating on their own". You're right, reading through the Inika saga, their masks just seem to activate when they need them to or when they try to activate them. The only one that seems to be active constantly is Kongu's Suletu. For that specifically, it makes sense that it was flooding him with thoughts, now that I think about it. The mask is active and seeks out minds he might need to read; but being as it is an object, it doesn't know which nearby minds he would actually need to read, so it just gets everything, until Kongu learns to control it and it doesn't need to help him anymore.

Regarding that scene from Dark Destiny: I actually reread that while making my post, to see if it had any insight on the matter. I don't think it's clear enough to say either way. Takanuva is trying to activate the mask, so why would he notice that he didn't need to? He manages to read Hahli's mind without telling that that is what he's doing. And then the scene ends right after that, so we don't see what happens next; could be he wasn't wearing it long enough to notice that it stayed on. I had hoped that that scene would support my argument, but it really doesn't support it or refute it.

And yeah, I agree, the Mask of Clairvoyance is an anomaly. Personally, I think it makes sense that it would be different from every other mask, considering what it does -- I think it's comparable to Vakama's visions, which are a thing that just happens and Vakama had no control of either. In fact, I would bet that if someone had asked Greg if the Mask of Clairvoyance was similar to Vakama's visions, he would have said yes. Sadly, though, we'll probably never know; and just because it makes sense to me doesn't make it canon.

In hindsight, I think it's best to save that discussion for now. While it's intrinsically tied to this discussion, I don't think it's tied to this point alone. The Mask of Clairvoyance cannot work as it's described if it's impossible for masks to be on at a low level, but even if we agree that it is possible for masks to be on at a low level, that doesn't automatically mean that the Mask of Clairvoyance debate is resolved. For now, I'm curious if you have any thoughts on the Rode/Arthron? --Willess12 (talk) 03:25, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Like I said, I think we would have to first nail down the Inika mask situation before we can make any decision on the others. But, looking at their cases specifically, the Arthron just doesn't have a whole lot behind it, as you've already pointed out. Just one Greg quote really, and maybe some implications from the books, but it's too vague to tell. If it is possible that inorganic Kanohi can be on at a low level, then nothing would contradict that quote.

The Rode has one quote saying it's consciously activated, and another saying it's always on. The latter, however, its question says "like the Elda," but again, it's not confirmed whether the inorganic Elda is always on or not. Just that one quote that suggests it is, but that question says "like the Suletu," which has the same problem. It's just one big poisoned well. Dag (talk) 03:53, 10 June 2024 (UTC)