User talk:Dag

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Welcome to BS01! -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 21:16, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Re: Kraata Variations

I've been thinking about our argument about the Kraata Variations page and I wanted to apologize. I didn't notice the Telekinesis discussion on the talk page, and that was my mistake. I should have asked you why you undid my edit instead of assuming it was something personal, which it clearly wasn't.

You've done a lot of good work for this Wiki, pulling up Greg sources and providing a lot of missing citations and interesting facts about the BIONICLE universe. I hope this quarrel hasn't ruled out the possibility of us working together constructively in the future. -- Toa Jala Converse 21:56, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

No worries! I probably should have made my intentions clear when first removing your edits, so I'll try to be more communicative in the future. Dag (talk) 22:09, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

EL of Sand

I don’t think you make convincing arguments for the ELoS being male, and to prevent an edit war from starting let's at least discuss it.

Re the ELoJ’s quote: Again, “brothers” can be used metaphorically to refer to mixed-gender groups. I saw on the ET talk page that you said this:

For the EL of Jungle's quote, yes, it is true that "brothers" has been used as a general term for sibling

Which wasn't my argument. My argument was that the non-literal sense of "brothers," meaning comrades or peers, can be used regardless of gender (except for female-only groups).

but every instance you gave is just that, a vague generalization. The EL of Jungle said that he had five brothers, a specific number.

So what was your point? That if you specify the number of people in a mixed-gender group you can’t call them brothers in the metaphorical sense? I don’t think that’s how it works, and it can’t be used a confirmation of the ELoS’s gender. Therefore it’s false to state that it confirms her to be male as you wrote in the note on her page.

Re the male pronouns: Greg uses male pronouns instead of “they/them” whenever he refers to someone whose gender is unknown. He called it a “reflex” when he confirmed that the ELoE was female despite using male pronouns for her when writing her backstory. So we shouldn’t take him using male pronouns in off-the-cuff Q&As when referring to the ELoS as a strict confirmation of gender either. If she was referred to with male pronouns in the story it would be a different thing and I would agree with you.

In short, Greg never straight up said that the ELoS was male and the examples you provided as evidence don't confirm it either, so him saying that she's female is not him contradicting himself. ~OnionShark 07:59, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Greg never straight up said that the EL of Sand was female either. In response to your question, he just said it "makes sense," which I would hesitate to call confirmation. While I still think the EL of Sand should properly be male, the compromise to leave it ambiguous should be fine. Dag (talk) 15:06, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

EL of Earth

The Community voted to keep the EL of Earth back in August. Do not take unilateral action to remove content from the wiki in this manner. ζox• Histories external image

The community does not decide canon. Either the Earth Tribe is canon, or it is not, and I've given an argument for why it should not be considered canon, and to not respond to that first before undoing my edits seems disingenuous. Regardless, I do not care if the pages remain or not, but as others have suggested, the Non-Canon or Semi-Canon tag should be put on the Earth Tribe and EL pages. Would this be an acceptable compromise? Dag (talk) 00:34, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
As far as community decisions on canonicity goes: you do not determine canonicity either. A discussion on the canonicity was had during the vote to remove the pages. That vote and discussion came down decidedly on the side of considering the Lord and Tribe canon, and with Greg's retcons solidifying both. To ignore that discussion in favor of your own preferences is disrespectful to this community. I am not here to rehash it or negotiate compromises with you. I am here, as staff, to tell you to not unilaterally remove pages, delete mentions, and declare a subject as non-canon against a community vote and a series of Greg Answers. If you wish to raise the idea of introducing the semi-canon tag, do so on a Talk Page, or do so on the wiki Discord, and get community input. ζox• Histories external image

Pridak

I kinda like your headcanon of him, but wasn't it said that all the Barraki were Toa sized before their mutations?--Surel (Talk) 13:14, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

If it was, I haven't seen it, probably a Greg quote somewhere. But there's also like 4 Greg quotes saying they're not from already known species, and one saying specifically none of them are likely not from Sidorak's species. My headcanon is mainly my thoughts if it's possible they're from already known species, so I'm not too concerned with close adherence to Greg quotes on this one. I think we can all agree there's far too many species, so finding any way to consolidate is always appreciated. Dag (talk) 13:42, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
I 100% agree on the too many species thing, it just came to my mind when I read it.--Surel (Talk) 13:58, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
I just found the quote you're talking about, and I'm gonna pretend I didn't see it lol. Dag (talk) 14:18, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Add on Discord?

Unfortunately irl has kept me from responding on Discord until now. I haven't meant to ignore you. Please add me :) -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 05:49, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Long time no see

Eyyyyyyy, what's up, Dag? How've you been? --Gonel (talk) 01:38, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Fine, thanks for asking. Dag (talk) 01:42, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
Welcome back!--SurelNuva (Talk) 06:36, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Hey, maybe I'm being paranoid, but I do want to state for the record that I am NOT trying to attack you or single you out by replying to all the discussion topics you've been commenting on. I just use the "recent changes" page regularly to check for new stuff, and it just so happened I had something to say on those three matters you had commented on (and I didn't really have that much to say on the Kanoka launcher page). I hope I'm not coming across too hostile or anything. I just figured I'd say something since it was three different topics you and I have been involved in and it was starting to feel like a pattern.--Willess12 (talk) 01:27, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

No offense taken, although I would prefer if you weren't as hasty with your edits before the discussions are done. The only reason I undid the initial edits that I undid before any discussion was because those edits themselves undid what the pages had said, before providing proper discussion/reasoning. Dag (talk) 02:08, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
Yeah, I'll admit I was hasty editing the Mask of Clairvoyance page the first time. I thought the issue was very clear, but your arguments on the discussion page made me realize it was far more debatable than I had thought (and you even cited a Greg quote I was unaware of, which I meant to say but forgot). So yeah, that one's on me.--Willess12 (talk) 02:38, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Psionics on SM beings

Orde used his powers to read the Vorox's minds in The Yesterday Quest. :) --SurelNuva (Talk) 07:38, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I realized that just after making that edit. Also found that Greg's Psionic blog post says "bio-mechanical or organic life," and this quote for good measure. The problem is, doesn't this technically contradict Greg's statements about the Komau and Rahi Control? It would certainly be under a Toa of Psionics purview. I guess you could say they have that as an additional limitation, but still. Dag (talk) 07:50, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Brickshelf

In regards to Brickshelf being shut down -- while there's no harm in the archives, I don't want you to stress over it. BMP has everything [that is public] archived, and JSLBrowning (who runs Wall of History) is also in discussion about purchasing the site. ~ Wolk (talk) 20:48, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

I know, but updating links to archived versions was long overdue anyway. And while we're on the topic, whatever became of the Waybonk Machine? Is it still being worked on? Dag (talk) 20:55, 26 January 2025 (UTC)
It is. :) ~ Wolk (talk) 00:22, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

Nuparu's Claws and Feet Additions

So, first thing first, the BionicleStory.com lists Pohatu Mata's Feet Additions as weapons, so not mentioning thek at all om Pohatu's page either as equipment or under abilities and traits just seems wrong. Second, Nuparu lost those claws, just like how Onua lost his when being transformed, so it must have been different design wise, than just literal fingers. I understand that Greg treated them as natural fingers, just like Catcher Claws, but Greg also said that anyone in the MU whose set did not have fingers on their hands as a set did not have fingers in the story, and their tools were magnetically attahced to thair hands.--SurelNuva (Talk) 07:24, 1 March 2025 (UTC)

I agree with Dag that the articles should mention front and center that the claws, feet additions, etc. are physically part of the Toa's bodies, so they are different from "swappable" tools that Toa focus their powers through. (Is that the official definition of a Toa Tool? Is there an official definition, or is it a fan concept that people assume is official since it has a BS01 article?) Also, I agree with Surel that including those tools in infoboxes and navboxes is pretty reasonable. At a practical level, the infoboxes and navboxes are where readers will naturally look for those articles. People wondering about whether or not a tool is swappable will either check its Toa's Abilities and Traits section or the tool's article, both of which will answer the question right off the bat. Also, to answer that question even faster, we can add notes to the infobox links, but that would open a can of worms: the Toa Hordika's Rhotuka launchers, Roodaka's Catcher Claw, etc. are all part of their users' bodies, yet we list them as tools in their users' infoboxes without notes. Thoughts? -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 08:47, 1 March 2025 (UTC)
Edit: Actually the Toa Hordika's infoboxes link to Rhotuka instead of Rhotuka Launcher. Meanwhile, Savage's infobox lists a (natural) Rhotuka Launcher as a tool. Rhotuka in particular blur the line between "tool" and "power," so maybe I shouldn't have mentioned them above. Either way, there's reason and precedent for listing body parts in infoboxes' "tools" sections, and in the past we haven't added additional notes that they're body parts (but I'm not opposed if it's not burdensome). -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 09:05, 1 March 2025 (UTC)
I do agree we generally should list the claws and foot additions in the Nav. As for the Rhotuka Launcher, I think "Natural Rhotuka Launcher" would appropriate. "Tools" includes 'natural' tools in general, see Radiak, Antroz, Mantax, etc. ~ Wolk (talk) 12:24, 1 March 2025 (UTC)

You guys are really overthinking this lol. As I said in the edit summaries, my issue is not that they're natural, and I agree natural tools should be listed on the Nav. But Nuparu's claws aren't mentioned anywhere, even BIONICLEstory.com, and we have no example usage. If it weren't for the arsenal pages proposal being one vote away from passing, I'd put that page up for deletion. Same with Feet Additions. BEU and MGttU say Pohatu carried no weapon/Toa tool, instead choosing to rely on his own strength. Mentioning the Feet Additions as his weapons not only goes against those higher tiered sources but also undermines that character trait. Although BIONICLEstory.com does list them as his weapons, the name doesn't make sense anyway. They are not additions to his feet. They are his feet. Dag (talk) 13:49, 1 March 2025 (UTC)

In the case of Onua, Greg said "just as Onua's were". I agree the individual pages don't need to exist, but I think they should still be present in the Infobox. As for the Feet Additions, for lack of a better name, that is what they are, and they are a physical part of him nonetheless, making them natural tools. ~ Wolk (talk) 21:44, 1 March 2025 (UTC)
FWIW, the Bohrok Promo CD says "his huge feet", in Pohatu's Mata entry. When I say natural tools, I don't see that as a contradiction with them not being tools in the typical sense. Radiak's teeth are 'natural tools', but they're certainly not 'tools'. ~ Wolk (talk) 22:01, 1 March 2025 (UTC)
I just want those articles linked in the obvious places if they exist. If we'll delete the claw and feet additions articles anyway (reasonable), removing them from infoboxes and navboxes is fine with me, as is leaving them.
If we delete the articles, in (for example) Pohatu's Abilities and Traits section, we could say "Pohatu has large feet suited to kicking" with a note that some later sources (BIONICLEstory.com, this question I don't remember asking) suggest they are "tools" or "weapons" despite most sources tilting the other way. I don't think the wiki would misrepresent or lose any info going that route. Whether or not we also list "feet additions" in the infobox doesn't matter to me, since anyone who cares about whether they are "real" tools (whatever that means) will read the Abilities and Traits section to get the full picture.
Obviously I'm massively (years) behind on proposals at this point, including the one to simplify the proposal process. :P I will go through them in the next day or so. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 21:56, 1 March 2025 (UTC)
Wolk, I just said it's not about them being natural. Onua's are fine as they are because the BEU, MGttU, and BIONICLEstory.com list his claws as his weapons. That is not the case for Nuparu, simple as. The only source that even mentions them is his bionicle.com bio. Also, just to be clear, I never removed the claws from Nuparu's infobox because they weren't there in the first place. And again, I'm not saying Pohatu's Feet Additions are not his tools because they're natural. I'm saying they're not his tools because the BEU says he did not use tools. The BEU mentions claws for Onua, but for Pohatu it explicitly states he did not use a tool because he instead relied on his strength. Dag (talk) 22:24, 1 March 2025 (UTC)
By that logic, we should remove the mentions of teeth for the 2008 characters? Those can hardly be considered tools. (BIOs calls them "natural weapons" iirc). Same for their claws. And again, Greg said Nuparu's claws are just like Onua's -- In that case that means either a) Onua's aren't tools or b) Nuparu's are. To rephrase what I meant about naturals: I don't think "natural tools" are tools at all. If natural tools (including teeth) are not truly tools, then the feet additions being natural tools would not contradict them not being tools. ~ Wolk (talk) 23:41, 1 March 2025 (UTC)
I truly do not understand why you're hung up on natural tools when that's not what I'm talking about. MGttU lists claws and poisonous fangs for Antroz, so we should too. BEU and MGttU do not list claws for Nuparu, so we shouldn't either. Of course put them in the Abilities and Traits section because he does have them, but not as a tool/weapon when none of the guidebooks reference them as such. Dag (talk) 00:03, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
We have confirmation that Nuparu's claws are just like Onua's and we also mention plenty of claws that are entirely anatomical parts, so I really don't see why a lack of mention would mean they don't count, because as you say, he does have them.
As for Pohatu's feet: As the sets demonstrate, and as the Promo CD states, he has huge feet. It is not simply that he is strong. I'm saying this makes them natural tools, that is why I'm bringing it up. I do not believe them being natural tools would at all contradict the statement that they are not tools because natural tools are despite the name not a subset of tools. Things like Radiak's teeth, or Mantax's spikes, or Antroz's claws, they are not tools at all either and typically not referred to as such. They are parts of their bodies, just like Pohatu's feet. ~ Wolk (talk) 00:35, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
This is as clear as I can be: I think the infobox should reflect guidebook entries as close as possible. Whatever guidebooks say characters have, put it in the infobox. If it's not in a guidebook, leave it off the infobox and have it in the Abilities and Traits section. Of course this would be done where applicable since not every character has an entry in a guidebook, and there could be other outliers that would be handled on a case by case basis. Radiak for example is one I could go either way on since the only guidebook he's in is MGttU, so not a huge sample size. But when BEU, MGttU, and even BIONICLEstory.com don't list Nuparu's claws as his tool/weapon, just leave it in the Abilities and Traits. Also, thanks to Morris for revising the voting requirements, the arsenal page vote just passed, so having them in the infobox because they have their own pages shouldn't be a concern anymore. Dag (talk) 00:51, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
Here's another example of what I mean that doesn't involve natural tools: Kongu Mahri's melee weapon which the Laser Crossbow transformed into. Yes, it did exist, but I don't think Kongu having it for a split second before trading it out for another Cordak Blaster is enough to list it in the infobox, but it should definitely be mentioned in the Mask and Tools section on his page. Dag (talk) 05:31, 2 March 2025 (UTC)
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