Talk:Lhikan
Turaga Set
I was looking on bricklink today, and stumbled upon what looks like a Turaga Lhikan set... It was a promo set, and here is the link: Turaga Lhikan --~Sapphowako 17:15, 1 March 2012 (PST)
- I believe that it was never officially established that the set was supposed to be Turaga Lhikan. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 17:47, 1 March 2012 (PST)
- spongebob narrator voice* TWO YEARS LATER!
- Well it took about, what, 8 years since the release of the set for us to get confirmation that that slightly ugly but charming promotional set is Turaga Lhikan. But really though, why was it this big an issue that the page had to be locked? Other Greg answers have been added on the wiki with similar three worded answers to a serious question. He usually answers with a "yes", or "Sure" or something to that effect. Like when I asked Greg about the whole Fikou migration thing (I love that Rahi so much now...), and he answered with a generic answer, I added the info that they are now on Spherus Magna and looking for a location for an area that is suited to whatever environment they adapted to before, and that some may die looking, 10 seconds later my stuff is removed, and I had to waste time to ask Greg, Again, and he responded with "I'm sure they are." Just my little example. I'm not even sure what my point was.... Ah, oh yes, I think Greg answers should be "innocent until proven guilty" or "correct until he corrects him self later". Saves time I guess. I suppose... Ah I forgot what I wanted to say...
Well, Greg just said that yes, it is definitely Lhikan.
The question is, can it now be added to the page?
I'd've added this to the section down below, but then my edit summary would say "abuse of power", and I saw no point in making a new Turaga set section when one was already here.--Willess12 (talk) 17:22, 29 September 2014 (CEST)
- I still doubt he knows, since he isn't really the person to ask when it comes to sets. This is why I don't like how Greg is canonizing anything he is asked about these days. --Vartemp 17:39, 29 September 2014 (CEST)
Well, I see where you're coming from -- but that's not our call to make. I think I informed him as much as I could, and now we have the word of God backing it up, and whether people like it or not, it's got to be added. *shrug*
Also, whenever the page is taken out of protection, Greg recently confirmed that the Red Star gave Lhikan a new Noble Hau upon his revival. So, uh, whenever you want to get around to that, Dorek. :P --Angel Bob (talk) 21:44, 29 September 2014 (CEST)
- I'll get to it in a bit. Anybody actually have the set? The instructions are online, but I can't find a good pic of either of the boxarts. The best ones are watermarked. -- I AM THE DOREK do not truffle with me 00:47, 30 September 2014 (CEST)
Abuse of Power
Dorek, you don't get to undo edits and lock down a page just because you think an idea that Greg confirmed is dumb. The moment we allow staff that sort of power, BS01 ceases to be a scholarly, unbiased encyclopedia for the compilation of BIONICLE-related data, and instead becomes an encyclopedia of "all canon facts that get a pass from Dorek". Greg Farshtey is the authority on what is and isn't canon, not you.
Now, many people, myself included, have disagreed with some of Greg's calls. I don't like that Sidorak was confirmed permanently dead; I don't like the idea of multiple Toa Kaita; I certainly don't like Tuyet's convoluted resurrection in Reign of Shadows. But, hey, Greg has proclaimed that they're canon, so they are on the site, because that is what BS01 is for. And you ought to have the same respect for BS01 that I do.
Staff power doesn't give you the right to approve or disapprove canon facts based on your personal opinion. It gives you the responsibility to do quite the opposite. --Angel Bob (talk) 03:00, 26 September 2014 (CEST)
Natch, going right for the jugular with the accusations, eh? I was working on how I was gonna present this, but I'll just do it here. But first...
In response to the locking the page: whenever something is in dispute, regardless of the reason of the dispute it's generally protocol to lock the page in order to prevent constant edit reversion. That's something we've always done, and you'll note I waited until another edit was actually made rather than just locking it right away. That's how we've always handled things; rarely if ever will I pull the "I've been longer so I know how it's done" card, but I'll call this a rare exception. I've been here longer. I know how it's done.
Secondly, the "dumb" comment was offhand editorializing, and I should have saved it for elsewhere. You're right. But that's not why I'm dismissing the so-called "fact". The original post I was going to make is as follows (or at least some version of it):
1. Greg can be wrong
- I'm not saying he is always wrong, I'm not even saying he is often wrong, nor am I saying that it doesn't mean we shouldn't listen to him or ask him questions. But he has been wrong, can be wrong, and is not completely infallible. We've gone over that before. To not think critically about his answers is not doing justice to him AS A SOURCE.
2. Read the answer
- In this case, the issue I took with the answer is that it was NOT a proper answer. To quote it:
- "So is this canonically Turaga Lhikan? And if it isn't, could you make it canon?"
- "Sure, go ahead"
- This was not a "yes this is Turaga Lhikan" or "yes I am making this Turaga Lhikan". This was a "you can consider the set as Turaga Lhikan", which is not only an answer he has given before, about this, but an answer that has been disputed in the past (in regards to other such things) and ultimately been rejected.
3. Does Greg actually have the authority to decree this as canon
- Greg's not a set guy. He's said so as much. This set happens to have a resemblance to the Turaga Lhikan model (and by that I mean the fact that it has the mask is literally the only thing about it that means anything, and even that's debatable), and fans are, well, fans. But there have been plenty of promotional sets, combiners, etc that don't feature in the story at all. By definition, they are non-canon sets. That's a thing. We've picked apart dozens of these instances in the BIONICLE Story Squad back in the day, and if something like that were still in play, you can bet your butt this wouldn't have passed.
I'm not ENTIRELY rejecting that this can be Turaga Lhikan, however. If this is something Greg can and wants to leave in the hands of the fans, for instance, that's cool. We can vote on it or whatever nonsense. I'll go through the list of BSS suggestions to see if it was ever talked about there. But there were a lot of reasons to say "hey, woah, let's think about this".
Which I have been doing. -- I AM THE DOREK do not truffle with me 03:51, 26 September 2014 (CEST)
- "In response to the locking the page: whenever something is in dispute, regardless of the reason of the dispute it's generally protocol to lock the page in order to prevent constant edit reversion."
- But only you disputed it. I think about three other people edited the page filling it with more information. Then you locked the page and deleted the picture. Does this mean if I didn't like that you removed random blurbs about Shore Turtles and Fikou, that I could demand to have those pages locked? --Boidoh (talk) 04:12, 26 September 2014 (CEST)
And I thought I had controversial ideas lately.
Anyway, Dorek's edit summary did suggest voting on the idea. It's not like he just removed it and locked down the page.
Oh yeah, and I've been on this wiki, for the most part, since before Bionicle ended, but I've never seen any pages locked except when there's new info, like the new Mask of Creation thing. Just saying, it's not a common event.--Willess12 (talk) 04:51, 26 September 2014 (CEST)
- I'm not going to expressly take sides on the Lhikan issue (not yet at least), but Boidoh, I think you made a good point regarding the Fikou/Shore Turtle issue (there are other instances besides those of course) and to be honest I'm glad you called us out on that. BS01, as you are well aware, is rather conservative when it comes to new info; we'd rather have articles be missing correct info than have them contain incorrect info. That's the promise BS01 makes to the community, and it is our duty to deliver in that regard. Because of that, we can be rather cautious when it comes to new Greg info and the like, and for that same reason I think Dorek made the right call in reverting the page to the old version (the version that we can say is without a doubt factually correct, if perhaps factually incomplete), if not locking it. That said, I do think there needs to be a more formal system to resolve edit disputes (perhaps involving locking if need be), especially with the increased activity BIONICLE's return will bring. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 06:45, 26 September 2014 (CEST)
@Boidoh: Locking pages is for when people are going to continue to edit a page when they shouldn't be, for whatever reason. Sometimes this is in the case of "edit wars" where people disagree with the way something about the page is structured (typically cosmetic in nature) and keep editing the page to fit their version. Sometimes it's in case of people being mistaken about something for whatever reason, or if a piece of information is not fully understood but people keep adding it anyway. And then there's locking pages that shouldn't be edited because anything put there would be speculation (generally reserved for upcoming information).
In the case of number two, locking the pages isn't a specific attack on anyone nor is it a power play of any description; it's just a tool to make the staff's lives a tiny bit easier so that they don't have to be constantly reverting the edit, and has the added bonus of forcing people to actually look around and find out why, which would hopefully lead them to discovering the root of the issue (or, if not, raising the question!). As nice as it would be, I certainly don't expect people to constantly check the RC or read all of the edit summaries, but by that same token people should realize that there are scenarios where they'll need to find out something on their own (or be satisfied with just wondering why a page was locked).
@Willess: Locking pages is a rarity these days, and it's not like it was super commonplace back when this place was a hip-happening establishment (although our hits are up, which is really cool!), but it's been known to happen, and this is precisely the kind of scenario where it WOULD happen.
I never said I wasn't willing to talk about this or that the discussion has ended. And if Greg says unequivocally that the Gold Good Guy IS Turaga Lhikan, I'll have to respect that (even though it shouldn't be for a myriad of reasons!). But requesting a brief interlude to contemplate and discuss the issue is not, to me, unreasonable. -- I AM THE DOREK do not truffle with me 07:05, 26 September 2014 (CEST)
- If it makes you feel better, Boidoh, I too dispute this Gold Good Guy picture and its connection to Lhikan. I do so for a couple reasons: 1. LEGO tends not to release sets of characters out of the years they appear in, and the Gold Good Guy's instructions clearly show he was part of the Voya Nui era of sets, both canon and non-canon. 2. The staff is all wrong for Turaga Lhikan.
Pretty much everything I felt like saying has been covered by Morris, so I'll drop by to leave a technical note: IF this winds up going through, please don't just upload the image back. I'd like to clean it up a bit before putting it on a page. Or at least, convert into something that isn't jpg. --Master of the Rahkshi Ask, and ye shall receive. Eventually. 07:18, 26 September 2014 (CEST)
In regards to the image: I deleted it for a few reasons (poor filing format, and the fact that it was a watermarked image...) but I screwed up the deletion summary (you can see I tried =P) so that one's on me. If the final consensus is bringing it back (although that re-ask of confirmation on the LMB is EXTREMELY uncalled for) then we'll find a more usable image. -- I AM THE DOREK do not truffle with me 07:22, 26 September 2014 (CEST)
- Boidoh... why? Why did you have to state it like that? This goes back to a conversation that was had on your userpage. You've only presented your side, and are asking Greg to support only you based only on your insistence that this is Lhikan, something disputable. Can you please edit your post, or something, and actually say WHY some of us (both staff and non-staff) have expressed the thoughts we do [i]without[/i] dismissing us as simply being wrong because we are doubtful of a dubious linking? ζox• Histories
Not going to share my opinion on the specific matter at hand, but I would like to speak to the issue of procedure that was brought up.
This is not a "BS01 issue." This is how a any Wiki operates if there is the potential for controversy or things need sorted out. Celebrity dies? Wikipedia locks the page. Fake celebrity death rumors go rampant? You bet they lock that page. It's to sort things out first and prevent chaos and misrepresentation of the subject.
It's not an abuse of power. It's not BS01 staff being power-crazed lunies. It's an expected and completely ordinary practice. It's just one that hasn't had to happen for a long time here. --~|RC|~ (Talk/Contribs)
- And it's going to be happening a lot more often. Posting speculative, leaked, or just plain unconfirmed info has been Original Sin on this wiki almost since its creation. So standard practice was eventually established to be this: when we learned the name of a new character, or a new book, or a new anything, a page for that thing would be A) created and B) locked. Staff would add any new information or corrections until the thing was released or showed up in the story, at which point the page would be unlocked. We would also do this for existing pages with new info being revealed (i.e. the Toa Inika).
- We have a lot of policies that are going to be pulled out and dusted off (and updated, but that's beside the point right now) running up to the official relaunch, and this is going to be one of them. --Master of the Rahkshi Ask, and ye shall receive. Eventually. 19:42, 26 September 2014 (CEST)
Ah. Well, in that case, I understand Dorek's motivation. The editorialized edit comment made the lock look like a personally motivated incident, instead of a matter of protocol. I apologize for jumping the gun and calling Dorek a power-crazed loony. :P
Also, yeah, Boidoh, that re-ask could have been phrased a lot more tactfully. Gotta present the argument for both sides: "You recently stated that this set was Turaga Lhikan, which is supported by several BZP and BS01 members. However, other BS01 members have pointed out that you denied this set being Turaga Lhikan on multiple occasions. With this in mind, which is correct? Is the set Turaga Lhikan, or not?" --Angel Bob (talk) 20:25, 26 September 2014 (CEST)
Where was Lhii mentioned in the story?
I know he was mentioned in the Bionicle encyclopedia and that he was probably referenced at least once during the Mata Nui arc, but I can't find a source anywhere. Please Help? --LavaringX (talk) 07:03, 10 February 2017 (CET)
- Actually, I think that the encyclopedia was the only mention of Lhii. I own almost every publication ever released, and I don't believe there is any mention of Lhii anywhere else, especially the 2001-2003 books series, as there is a relatively small amount of content to go through. It is possible I missed it, but this is unlikely because I read through the Mata Nui story several times before I found a copy of the Bionicle encyclopedia, and I had never heard of Lhii until I read about him there. Also this would not be the first time that a canon fact only appeared in a guide, for example, in H.A. Hapka's original novels, the Shadow Toa were defeated by the Toa attacking each others clones, but Greg Farshtey later changed this in the encyclopedia, saying that the Shadow Toa were absorbed into the Toa's bodies when they realized that their dark twins were simply illusions of the darkness inside themselves. In this case I am sure that this fact only appeared in the encyclopedia because I have done research on it, but I will by on the lookout for any mention of Lhii the next time I read through my collection just in case.--Harsulin's Ghost (talk) 21:58, 29 August 2017 (CET)
- i never had any of the guide books, but i remember hearing about lhii. he must have been mentioned in one of the 04/05 books in an epilogue or prologue or something then.(The preceding unsigned comment was made by Intelligence4)
- Again, Lhii was only mentioned in the 2 Encyclopedias. — Surel—Nuva (Talk) 08:49, 30 August 2017 (CET)
fan theory trivia
i agree that that shouldn't be on his page, but where did that come from? i've never heard of such a theory that his mask is cursed.(The preceding unsigned comment was made by Intelligence4)
- Me neither, but it sounded in some points pretty awful. If Lhikan's mask had been cursed, then Lhikan should've died in the To Fortress at the Frostelus attack. — Surel—Nuva (Talk) 08:51, 30 August 2017 (CET)
- I'm pretty sure it originated as a joke on MakutaFest a few years back. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 08:28, 2 September 2017 (CET)
Lhii
"Next year, when you are focusing on the history of the Matoran, are you going to make new sets, and re-release old ones? Like re-releasing the Turaga, and coming out with Matoran like Lhii the Surfer? "
"It will be all new sets next year." Is Lhii going to be an actual character, and play a part in the storyline next year, or was he merely a thought that was in the conceptual story bible?"
"I can't answer 2004 story questions at this point."
— ~M~ and GregF, OGD, Jun 25 2003, 08:54 AM
If the fans knew about Lhii in 2003, that indicated that the Official Guide to BIONICLE featured him somehow. It was the only world-building Guide which came before the Mask of Light movie was released. I have found a Hungarian copy, but haven't been able to order it, maybe in the next month. 'Til than, I left this thing to someone else who has a copy of the Official Guide. — Surel—Nuva (Talk) 15:54, 15 September 2017 (CET)
- Well if it helps, there is this thread on BZPower that discusses the first appearance of Lhii. It traced all the way back to the earliest versions of BIONICLE.com when Lhii was first mentioned in Jala's 2001 bio and later the BIONICLE lexicon in early 2003. Even certain versions of MNOG mentioned Lhii as well when you talk to Jala. So it could be the guide, or it could just be that ~Mattym 18:00, 15 September 2017 (CET)
"Replacement mask"
Do we know Lhikan's "replacement mask" is not a noble Hau? -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 21:07, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
- I don't think so, but I don't think we know if it is either. If someone wants to dig into the archives to see if there's anything on Red Star replacement masks, we might find out... ~ Wolk (talk) 14:28, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
- A long time ago, i think it was in 2014 or 2015, i asked greg using the username lavalness64 in the message boards if lhikan was given a replacement red hau in the red star and he said yes, i know that it is in the archives of the message boards because i remember that i asked him this --Mata nui avunaka (talk) 13:15, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
- since the bodies are teleported to the red star, wouldn't they just use his original mask? do we have any information on this? Intelligence4 (talk) 23:19, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
- A long time ago, i think it was in 2014 or 2015, i asked greg using the username lavalness64 in the message boards if lhikan was given a replacement red hau in the red star and he said yes, i know that it is in the archives of the message boards because i remember that i asked him this --Mata nui avunaka (talk) 13:15, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
- I do rember that Greg canonized on the LMB that the replacement mask is indeed a Hau. — Surel—Nuva (Talk) 18:33, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
- Rechecked this page's "#Turaga" section and found this: " Also, whenever the page is taken out of protection, Greg recently confirmed that the Red Star gave Lhikan a new Noble Hau upon his revival. So, uh, whenever you want to get around to that, Dorek. :P --Angel Bob (talk) 21:44, 29 September 2014 (CEST) " (just check the section on the top of this page) So yeah, Lhikan got a replacement Noble Hau. — Surel—Nuva (Talk) 18:50, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
Origin of the "yellow with a Pakari" thing for Lhii
So, this article says Lhii was said to be all-yellow with a Pakari, but the source is unknown. I'm 99% sure the source was some kind of magazine or website feature demonstrating the character creator for Quest for the Toa by creating Lhii - hence the Pakari, because the player character always has a Pakari in that game. I feel like I have a vague memory of seeing this, but I couldn't tell you for the life of me exactly where. Based on what I would've had access to at the time, I'd guess either the LEGO World Club Magazine (which I think was the UK's renamed version of LEGO Mania Magazine?) or the retail LEGO Adventures magazine... Jalaguy (talk) 22:29, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
iiinteresting. World Club and Mania Magazine shared a fair bit of content around that time, but they weren't the same magazine - which in this case is unfortunate, as we've got scans of all the Mania issues on the web, but only one from World Club in 2001. And don't even get me started on the super obscure 01/02 Adventures issues... Here's the World Club issue we've got: [1] (edit the URL to navigate, Miniland has their galleries set up weird). Unfortunately, no features on Quest for the Toa in this one. Hopefully someone will read this who has more issues on hand! Peri (talk) 22:53, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
![[1]](http://www.miniland.nl/LEGOclub/world%20club%20magazine%20sep%20oct%202001/1.jpg){kind=link}
- I definitely remember a double-page feature in Adventures which included some concept art and stuff from The Legend of Mata Nui (which I think I might still have, I should try and find that...), but I feel like it didn't have anything from the GBA game. I dunno, I just definitely feel like I can remember seeing a screenshot of the character creator in all yellow somewhere... Jalaguy (talk) 23:06, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
I'm bringing this back. If there's no source, why does BS01 still say Lhii was described as all-yellow with a Pakari? At least shift it to the Trivia as a rumour.
The Jerminator (talk) 04:49, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
- Odd that I never responded to this; as for what Jalaguy said in the first comment, I also have vague memory of having seen that, so I do believe there is truth to this. And clearly, it wouldn't have originated from nowhere. As such, the source should be out there, we just haven't found it yet. ~ Wolk (talk) 14:58, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
- I have found an article with an image of an all-yellow Matoran in the creator, but it seems to be fan-created:
- The article makes reference to the BS01 page, so it clearly isn't the origin of the rumour. Also, it was written in 2019, although I don't know when the image was created. Is it possible that this is the image you are remembering, and there was no such image prior to BS01's claim?
The Jerminator (talk) 07:21, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
- No. The supposed image is of the character creator from BIONICLE: Quest for the Toa. ~ Wolk (talk) 10:08, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
- Isn't that what the image is? Just to be clear, I'm talking about the very last image in the article, not the MNOG-styled one at the start.
- The Jerminator (talk) 20:59, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
US Promo
Greg does say it was designed in 2003, this is true, however, the design as it was released cannot have been, for two reasons: The Lhikan mask wasn't designed until 2004, per the copyright written it. Compare to the ©2003 in other 04 parts. This is due to the Lhikan & Kikanalo set being a last-minute set based on the movie. The Hordika arm, a 2005 piece (also ©2004, parts are designed a year prior in most cases). (There's also the reuse of the Kazi build.) Greg is ultimately, not a set designer, and as he said, he had not seen the set. ~ Wolk (talk) 06:10, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- My thinking is, we know there was an idea for a Turaga Lhikan set. We don't know the precision of "Three years ago," nor if the set was redesigned. I originally tried to leave it vague, as I see two possibilities; 1. The set was actually designed in 2004 for release in 2005 (The background uses the 2005 style), or 2. the set was redesigned. ~ Wolk (talk) 11:18, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
Native to Metru Nui?
I also mentioned this as it was relevant in the talk page for Dume, but Greg said here that Lhikan (and Dume) were both native to Metru Nui. He specifies in a response to a question about this statement that if this answer violated established canon, that the established canon takes precedence over this. The question brings up good points, and I think it may have been a mistake that shouldn't be extrapolated this far, but it would be possible that Lhikan originally lived in Metru Nui, but emmimigrated away in the past, then came back to the island, no? I don't really know if I feel all that strongly convicted that this is the case, but I think it is worth discussing and at least should merit a note. Firespitter Lhii (talk) 19:17, 1 February 2024 (UTC)