Talk:Timeline/History of the Matoran Universe

From BIONICLEsector01

Zivon?

On the 100,000 years + section, before Mata Nui's creation it is said that the Zivon was placed in the Field of Shadows. But the Zivon was created by the Makuta, who were created by Mata Nui, so that event could not have happened before Mata Nui was activated.

Am I missing something or should the timeline be changed to reflect this? --Darthlego 10:59, 20 December 2012 (PST)

No One Gets Left Behind

Since Spiriah had a team of Toa Hagah, which he doubtfully got after his 'failure', and the formation of the Toa Hagah takes place after NOGLB, which in turn takes place after the formation of the Dark Hunters, that leaves NOGLB, and the formation of the Toa Hagah, to take place between Spiriah's failure and the formation of the Dark Hunters, between 70,000 to 80,000 years ago. At the moment it is stated to take place 'over 7,000 years ago'.

Should this be changed? WOLKsite (talk) 12:35, 10 February 2017 (CET)


Oh... That's a Retcon! Spiriah can't have had a Toa Hagah Team, for his experiment with the Skakdi was long before the evolution of the Makuta species. And the Makuta hired the Toa Hagah after their evolution. Greg missed that. -- Surel—Nuva (Talk) 16:17, 24 February 2017 (CET)
As I get it, the page only states that NOGLB happened before 7,000 years ago (since Varian is in stasis during Zaktan's flashback in BL4). Between 70,000 and 80,000 years ago is before 7,000 years ago, so there is no retcon. --maxim21 19:08, 24 February 2017 (CET)
Spiriah was exiled before the Makuta's evolution happened. So We don't need to re-write the original dating. -- Surel—Nuva (Talk) 19:15, 24 February 2017 (CET)
Wait a sec, do you have a soruce for saying that the Toa Hagah were created after the Makuta's evolution and that all Toa Hagah teams were created at the same time? And before you say it, the fact that it might be in the timeline (if it is, I missed it) is not enough because it doesn't cite any source. ~OnionShark 20:34, 24 February 2017 (CET)
Exactly, the Toa Hagah's purpose was to defend the Makuta('s armor), because they've become more vulnerable trough their evolution. And The Mutran Chronicles doesn't mention any Toa Hagah before the evolution for they didn't need them. -- Surel—Nuva (Talk) 20:47, 24 February 2017 (CET)
Ok, but what's the source for this? ~OnionShark 22:46, 24 February 2017 (CET)
So, if the Raid on Artakha page is right, this event was 1,500 years before the Great Cataclysm, so 2,500 years before the current timeline. Our Timeline says that the evolution of the Makuta was 40/30,000 years ago. I think someone should check the Makuta's Guide... There's no other reason why was it put there. -- Surel—Nuva (Talk) 23:30, 24 February 2017 (CET)
I asked for the source saying that the Hagah were made for defending the Makuta's armor, and just because it's written somewhere on BS01 doesn't mean that it is accurate, like when the GB page said that the GBs that brought the Ignika to Voya Nui were the same ones that brought the Scroll of Preparations to Metru Nui and tampered with the Blade Burrowers. ~OnionShark 09:54, 25 February 2017 (CET)
I'd just like to remind you that if there isn't a source, then there is no contradiction, and Spiriah had a Toa Hagah team (and who cares if they were not mentioned in TMC, they were just not important). ~OnionShark 18:29, 25 February 2017 (CET)

I think your edit to the Other Toa page is a little hasty, SN. We still haven't seen any source saying that the Toa Hagah were only formed after the Makuta's evolution. Until such a source appears, there is no contradiction, and there's no need to change anything. Hence I've reversed that edit. If you can find a source that clears up when the Toa Hagah were formed, then I'll yield. --Angel Bob (talk) 06:07, 26 February 2017 (CET)

I checked literally every source that mentioned the Toa Hagah, and none of them say that the Hagah were employed to protect the Makuta's armor. I'm gonna re-add the information about Spiriah's team. ~OnionShark 15:19, 26 February 2017 (CET)

The Toa Hagah were formed shortly after the Matoran Civil War, and the Dark Hunters were founded no earlier than 90,000 years ago, so the widest range NOGLB takes place between is 79,100 and 90,000 years ago. Dag (talk) 20:37, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

It could be wider though, as Greg has stated that some Toa Hagah teams were formed at different times (that is, not necessarily immediately after the Matoran Civil War):
Q) "Were all the seven Toa Hagah teams, the teams the Makuta made to protect them, all assembled at the same time, or were some formed before others?"
A) "I do not believe that they would have all happened [the Toa Hagah teams being formed] at the same time, simply because it would take time to recruit Toa for this. And, as was pointed out here, it would have been more of a priority for some Makuta than for others. If your region was not a particularly dangerous one, there would have been no rush to get yourself a security detail. And there were probably at least a few Makuta who were initially resistant to the idea of Toa hanging around all the time." (source)
Since Metru Nui wasn't particularly dangerous (or at least not for a Makuta) there may not have been a pressing need for Teridax to get himself a team, so NOGLB could really have happened at any point in the huge timespan between the MCW and Zaktan's flashback in BL4 (from 79,100 YA to 7,000 YA). The problem here is that we simply don't know when Norik's Hagah team was formed, although there could be some clues to when it happened in the OGD, so we should keep an eye out for them. Or someone could ask Greg on the TTV Message Boards for the exact time (and hope to god his answer doesn't contradict the already established timeline :P). ~OnionShark 21:33, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
Yes, but as you said, we don't know when Teridax's team specifically was formed, only that Hagah teams in general started forming 79,100 years ago, so the widest confirmed range so far is still 79,100 and 90,000. Dag (talk) 21:38, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you mean exactly by "confirmed range"... According to Greg, Norik's team could very well have been formed at a much later time than "sometime after the MCW". All I'm saying is that until we can find something that narrows the timespan a little, it could have been possible that NOGLB happened a little over 7,000 YA (the point in time in which Zaktan observes Varian in stasis). Although I think this is improbable, it still means that the widest confirmed range would be 90,000-7,000. Since the available sources leave that possibility open, saying it happened between 90k YA and 79,1k YA would still be technically incorrect. We simply can't be sure. IMO NOGLB's placement on the timeline shouldn't be changed until we can narrow it down more precisely either through Greg's old quotes or by asking him, or at most we could say it happened "Between 90,000 YA and 7,000 YA" for now. ~OnionShark 22:21, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
I meant that all that has been confirmed is that Hagah teams started forming 79,100 years ago, and the Dark Hunters were formed no earlier than 90,000 years ago. Yes, Teridax's Hagah team could've been formed long after 79,100, but that's just speculation. That's why I said widest confirmed range. Any wider range would be speculative. Dag (talk) 22:36, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Dark Hunters

Sorry if I missed this, but how do we know the Dark Hunters were founded more than 90,000 years ago? -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 20:32, 2 April 2017 (CET)

The Greg quote referenced in the first event of the section says that the DHs were formed before the Barraki's rebellion because there were ex-DHs in their armies. Aaand I just realized I made mistake, the rebellion started 95,000 YA, not 90,000, I'll correct the error immediately. ~OnionShark 14:47, 3 April 2017 (CET)
Actually, it's the other direction - the rebellion happened 80,000 YA, so the DHs should be 80,000+ YA. Prior to then the Barraki were the ordained rulers, not rebels. --Angel Bob (talk) 15:10, 3 April 2017 (CET)
Oh, right, sorry. ~OnionShark 15:24, 3 April 2017 (CET)
The Dark Hunters weren't part of the rebellion? Ex-DHs were only part of the Barraki armies during Teridax's reign. ~ Wolk (talk) 13:00, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
what about factoring lhikan's timeline in all of this? we know he was a toa for about 7,000 years, and we know he was a relatively new toa when he was on guard duty at that fortress that hakann and vezok robbed, which, according to legacy of evil, was around 7,000 years ago. this would mean that the dark hunters were formed at least that long ago, since they were an established organization when they were recruited by Ancient. they were enough of an established organization to have a base on their island, which they took over from the original inhabitants, and had several members for the piraka to train with. Intelligence4 (talk) 14:52, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Pre-launch (so, is that the time before time?)

Given that:

a. the robot was fully functional and launched after the toa mata did their work in karda nui, and

b. the toa mata were trained by the OoMN, and

c. the Mata were not the first toa team, and

d. the OoMN was preceded by the hand of artahka, which was functional for a significant amount of time, and

e. certain members of the Hand, such as Axxon, ran around conquering places for a long time in between being part of the hand and the order, and that

f. I had another point to put here, but i can't remember what it is,

wouldn't the building and preparing of the mata nui robot (and thus the history that happened inside it before mata nui took control) have taken something like 200 years? there's no way that all that could have happened in such a short timespan, especially given the points i made above - those events were somewhat spread out, and that was all before the robot launched. Furthermore, this would give us perspective on how long tren krom was ruling the universe - and that lesovikk's hiatus took basically the entire history of the matoran universe! (since his team was killed before launch, and he was still wandering around in the final days of the universe, as seen in the Pit in the 2007 story arc.)

...right? Intelligence4 (talk) 06:40, 30 May 2017 (CET)

Greg said that the building of the GSR took only some monthsg, but it's enough for more teams to exist in a place that is big as a planet. And I'm pretty sure that the HoA trained the Mata (we should check BL10). ~OnionShark 07:52, 30 May 2017 (CET)
Concerning the Toa Mata, they were trained by Hydraxon when the OoMN was already around, given that the Mata were sent to Daxia after their creation and were awakened by Helryx. Du7734 12:03, 31 May 2017 (CET)
I checked and the flashbacks don't mention the OoMN, so Helryx was still part of the HoA at the time. ~OnionShark 13:24, 31 May 2017 (CET)
Well, there must be GregF quotes about that, since every pages on this wiki covering these events state that the Toa Mata were awakened into Daxia Fortress after the disbandment of the HoA. In fact, it's simply stated on this timeline page. Du7734 14:27, 31 May 2017 (CET)
Well the building of the GSR took months, the HoA was disbanded after 200 years from its creation, and the Mata were awakened before Mata Nui's take-off, so it must simply be an error (I've noticed this wiki is full of them). ~OnionShark 15:24, 31 May 2017 (CET)
Sometimes the error isn't with the wiki, but with the canon itself. We should check to see what Greg has said about this in the OGD/etc and BIONICLE World. --Angel Bob (talk) 15:38, 31 May 2017 (CET)
And if the HoA was trully founded during the construction of the Matoran Universe, the statement "the building of the GSR took months" has to be retconned, according to the rule of precedence. Du7734 16:15, 31 May 2017 (CET)
Precisely. --Angel Bob (talk) 19:41, 31 May 2017 (CET)
@Angel Bob If anything we should searcg for a source that states that the HoA had already been disbanded, if there isn't one it's probably just one small mistake like many. @Du7734 I don't understand why you say this, the BL10 flashbacks don't mention the OoMN at all. (And in case you don't remember, Helryx was part of the HoA). ~OnionShark 19:48, 31 May 2017 (CET)
@OnionShark: hm, the "this" is refering to my last message, right? It was just a sidenote that came to my mind when I checked the HoA page. There, it's stated that the HoA was founded during the MU's construction. And since it's also stated the HoA was active during 200 years, the building of the GSR has to last 200 years at the least. Then, if all of that is correct, the rule of precedence implies that the statement "the GSR's building took months" must be ignored. Du7734 23:32, 31 May 2017 (CET)
Related quote:
3. Who sent the Toa Mata to fight the avohkah?
3) Order of Mata Nui
3. Wait...so the OoMN came around BEFORE Mata Nui actually took control of the universe? What I heard in the Official Greg Discussion thread and from this reply was that Mata Nui (and therefore the avokah) first came to be shortly before the Toa Mata entered Karda Nui. Is that correct? If so, does that mean the OoMN did indeed exist before Mata Nui himself?
Before he was active, yes
(by Cmaster05, 2008-07-18 09:31)
05:12, 1 June 2017 (CET)
Huh, this changes everything I guess. It's weird, 'cause I'm pretty sure that the Core War didn't last for over two centuries. We should also check for a possible retcon (besides, it may also have been an error, maybe Greg didn't think about the timeline before answering, who knows), or for a source that says for how long the HoA was active (I imagine it would be World). ~OnionShark 07:42, 1 June 2017 (CET)
The World only mentions the OoMN. The HoA should be a OGD info. — Surel—Nuva (Talk) 14:01, 1 June 2017 (CET)
Oh, it's not from World? Then it originates from the BEU, all the information is there. Yes, including the 200 years part. That means that we should now find a source for the lenght of the Core War, and I doubt it lasted that much. ~OnionShark 17:03, 1 June 2017 (CET)
3. How long did the Core War last?
3) I had originally said six months to a year for the war, but it may have been longer than that. (by The True Zedd of BZPower, 2009-07-15 20:39:00)
1) How long was the Core War (months, years, weeks, decades)?
1) Years, probably (by Makahi, Toa of Time, 2009-07-16 10:05:00)
All I could find in the OGD. --maxim21 19:31, 1 June 2017 (CET)

Wow, this thread took off way faster than i intended - i mostly meant for it to be a fun discussion haha. (also of note, once you get to four or five colons for indenting, just start over with no colons.) i think it was established in ba10 that the OoMN trained the mata - that was part of the whole point of helryx showing takanuva what they did in their past as an organization, i think. anyway, there's no way that building the robot only took months - we're literally talking about building multiple self-contained biomes containing islands, oceans, skies, etc. i think that's the only timeline detail that's off here. another question - when reading through all those replies, i noticed you guys were quoting things, but i wasn't sure what they were from. are you quoting new stuff that you're asking greg over on ttv, or stuff from the old greg quotes archives? Intelligence4 (talk) 22:41, 2 June 2017 (CET) i think what angel bob said best sums it up - sometimes the canon itself is wrong

Actually BL10 never mentions the OoMN (in fact, I always assumed that the HoA was training the Mata, as Helryx, Hydraxon and Spinax were part of the organization). The quotes come from those text files containing Greg's old BZP answers. And, while searching through the files, I've come across some quotes mentioning a timeline involving the HoA in the March 2007 Brickmaster issue, maybe it could help us understand the timeline better. Could anyone that has that issue upload scans if the timeline to the wiki?
I might have it; it'd be a longshot though - and i don't have access to a scanner - unless photographs are okay, but there are a number of security problems with uploading those i'd rather not deal with (meta data and such). is there any other info you can provide about that information on the HoA? maybe what page the info was on, any context surrounding what you saw, source of said quotes, etc. Might help me dig up something. (idk how, but more context is never a bad thing, i suppose.) Intelligence4 (talk) 09:03, 4 June 2017 (CET)
food for thought: helryx said that they knew the mata would lose part of their memories, and that was a good thing so that it would keep their organization secret. the HoA didn't try to remain very secretive did they? whereas the order of mata nui effectively concealed themselves from the world for several millennia. Intelligence4 (talk) 19:49, 4 June 2017 (CET)
Just to clarify: The Makuta's Guide to the Universe page 20 says that the Toa Mata was awakened by the Order of Mata Nui. — Surel—Nuva (Talk) 11:47, 21 August 2017 (CET)
well that clinches it then haha. also, i checked the march 2007 issue of brickmaster, and it says nothing about the hand or the order. it looks like the launch and stuff really did take over 200 years... which makes sense, imo. Intelligence4 (talk) 21:36, 29 August 2017 (CET)

I just found this page and am summarizing my thoughts. The HoA was active for 200 years before the OoMN (according to canon sources of undetermined accuracy), and we know that the OoMN existed before Mata Nui was active, (according to Greg's answer in the above quote), but that would mean that the HoA was active for 200 years inside Mata Nui before launch, meaning that Mata Nui was under construction for at least 200 years (a reasonable sounding amount of time for the project). If the time that the HoA existed was erroneous, it would have only existed for a few months or so, which would leave the only problem being that it simply doesn't seem feasible to construct Mata Nui that fast, but if that time period is accurate, then it actually doesn't necessarily conflict the time that the Core War was fought necessarily, if Mata Nui had been under way for some hundred years before the Core War started.

So my conclusion of the least conflicted explanation is this. Mata Nui was under construction for around 200 years or more, before the Core War started, a time during which the HoA was active. The Core War ignited when Mata Nui was near to completion, and the Great Beings decided late in production that the robot would be powered by Energized Protodermis, which had been found during the war. The HoA was disbanded adout when the Core War started to make way for the OoMN, who were to take over when Mata Nui became active. This leaves the only inconsistency the amount of time Greg said that it took to construct Mata Nui, which seemed like the most debatable fact in the list.--Harsulin's Ghost (talk) 23:30, 29 August 2017 (CET)

@Harsulin's Ghost: Good summary, but your proposition is at odds with one canon fact: the MU project was a response to what's going on inside Spherus Magna, the potential Shattering, and how to fix it. In short, the study of EP and the MU's construction occured after that the Core War started. Moreover, the study of EP happened before the MU's construction, since it's this study which allows the Great Beings to design Protodermis.
But, as for me, I found information that might settle things here. Let me quote the last paragraphs of Reign of Shadows:

"Angonce studied his ancient equipment. It told him much about the state of the newly restored Spherus Magna. Mata Nui had gone dormant, at least temporarily; the original Mata Nui robot and its prototype had both been destroyed; the nanotech inhabitants of Mata Nui had somehow survived and were emerging onto Spherus Magna and interacting with the local inhabitants.

The Great Being should have been pleased by all this. After all, it was he and his brothers and sisters who had created Mata Nui and sent the robot on its mission, which culminated in the restoration of the planet. But things had changed a great deal in the last 101,000 years. What might once have been cause for celebration now provoked very different emotions."

As I understand it, with the actual context, Angonce refer to everything that's happened since the emergence of EP onto the surface of Spherus Magna. So, that would imply the Core War, the study of EP, the MU's construction, and the HoA's existence took place over a thousand years. Du7734 13:42, 30 August 2017 (CET)
Ehh... Not.100,000 years passed since the shattering and the great cataclysm. 1 thousand years passed since the Great Cataclysm and the reformation of the Spherus Magna. — Surel—Nuva (Talk) 18:06, 30 August 2017 (CET)
Absolutely not: 100,000 years passed since the shattering and the reformation of Spherus Magna. There's 99,000 years between the shattering and the GC. Du7734 21:30, 30 August 2017 (CET)
No. 100,000 years passed since the shattering to the Great Cataclysm. (BIONICLE: World: Chapter 3: Metru Nui) That's the time while the Toa Mata were sleeping in the codrex. 1000 years passed while the Toa Mata were in the ocean. (BIONICLE: World Chapter 5: Mata Nui). 1 year passed since the Toa Mata awakened on Mata Nui (BIONICLE Legends 9 page 24-25). — Surel—Nuva (Talk) 21:37, 30 August 2017 (CET)

In response to your comment on my earlier post Du7734 (can I just call you Du-de, joke), yes, it does seem to be heavily implied throughout the story that Mata Nui was only started after the Core War, however I found an interesting piece of info that might suggest otherwise in the Legends of Bara Magna comic All Our Sins Remembered. After Raanu and Kyry brought the Great Beings a sample of the Energized Protodermis and they came to the conclusion that the planet would be destroyed, they released the Baterra, and quote "At the same time the Great Beings sped up another project: the creation of a giant robotic being with immense power, one capable of escaping the planet before it's destruction." Although this doesn't prove that Mata Nui was started before the Core War, I don't know that there is any text that directly opposes this theory. What it does prove however, is that Mata Nui was under way before the study of Energized Protodermis, which also means that the Matoran and Toa were not created until after the Core War started. This does present the problem of the Toa we know would have existed before the discovery of EP, for example Helryx, who as part of the HoA would have been around for a couple hundred years before then, as well as Lesovikk and his team. This leaves us with a potential contradiction, or Helryx and the other Toa of this early age were not protodermic beings like the later designs for the Toa Mata.--Harsulin's Ghost (talk) 21:43, 30 August 2017 (CET)

@Surel-Nuva: The timeline from this chapter of BW doesn't state that at all: 100,000 years ago, BEFORE the timeline was written during the 07 storyline, the GBs founded Metru Nui. 1,001 years ago, BEFORE the timeline was written during the 07 storyline, the usurpation of Dume by Teridax and the events of 04~05 took place.
The same goes for other media, as Mata Nui Saga: with the current time being the events of Journey's End there, 100,000 years before them, Mata Nui left Spherus Magna while the planet was struck by the Shattering. 1,000 years before them, the Great Cataclysm occured. And so, between those two, there's 99,000 years that passed.
I mean, the journey-mission of Mata Nui has always lasted during 100,000 years, not 101,000 (for what I can find right now: pages 13, 21, 33, 66, and 69 of Jouney's End, this quote, and the entry one of Mata Nui's diary in the Guide to Bara Magna).
@Harsulin's Ghost: (Ahah, If you want :p) Well, this quote is in contradiction with the Story of Spherus Magna, in the first pages of Mata Nui's Guide to Bara Magna. There, it's clearly stated the construction of the GSR began after the study of EP, the discovery that the Shattering will occur, and another attempt from the GBs to calm down the Core War with this revelation. Here's a pic of the source. Du7734 14:41, 31 August 2017 (CET)
Well if that's the case then we do have a contradiction, not surprisingly. Still, it wouldn't be difficult to say that the Core War lasted longer, since Greg didn't actually seem all that sure himself, but in the end I guess the only way to settle this would be to Greg it.--Harsulin's Ghost (talk) 19:39, 31 August 2017 (CET)

Re-summarizing my thoughts. As I see it, the two least solidified facts in question are,

One:The amount of time the HoA was active,

And Two:The time that the Core War lasted.

In my opinion the latter is less supported because the fact that the HoA existed for 200 years was actually from a published source, but as for the length of the Core War, that was simply an nonchalant answer that Greg gave to a fan question. I think that in light of our conclusions in this discussion, we should ask Greg to choose one of these two adaptions.--Harsulin's Ghost (talk) 20:04, 31 August 2017 (CET)


wow this blew up way more than i thought it would. if/when we ask greg, we should make sure to show him my original points from the OP, along with the quoted canon facts. i think we can safely assume the HoA was indeed around for 200 years though. also, i'm not sure we should ask greg to exclude some facts from canon, even if they're contradictory. not everything has to be perfect, and this is a nearly 10 year discontinued (!!??) story. we shouldn't discount and exclude parts of it after the fact that were told as part of it, imo. Intelligence4 (talk) 23:26, 4 September 2017 (CET)

I know how many time has passed since this topic was left behind, but I found the evidence that, indeed, the Order of Mata Nui awakened the Toa Mata not the Hand of Artahka, in the Makuta's Guide to the Universe: "TAHU: Toa Mata of Fire, Tahu was made leader of the team by the Order of Mata Nui." It's on the page 20. — Surel—Nuva (Talk) 10:51, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Aye, that's right. It's just another mistake among many, but I guess this might be a bit more of a deal than just a small timeline thing. Either the Toa Mata were awakened by the HoA and Makuta's Guide made the mistake, or again, the Core War just lasted much longer than was originally proposed.--Harsulin's Ghost (talk) 00:01, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
i said it before, but i'll say it again... i can't believe how much this blew up. i don't want to comment on the core war, but the building of the robot definitely took a couple hundred years. nice find, surel!
also, didn't helryx say something to takanuva about the mata losing their memories and that was good since they wouldn't remember the oomn, but they didn't know just how severe the memory loss would be? Intelligence4 (talk) 23:03, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
Well, Helryx told Takanuva in the BL10 that "We were aware the Toa Nuva would lose part of their memory in the time they spent in the Toa canisters, the better to keep our existence a secret." Considering that the HoA wasn't kept in secret, we can say that Helryx indirectly says that her Order trained & awakened the Toa Mata, so the MGttU didn't make any mistake in Tahu's article. — Surel—Nuva (Talk) 00:09, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
I'm failing to recall any fact that stated the HoA was not a secret organization. How do we know that it wasn't?--Harsulin's Ghost (talk) 03:33, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
They were the main defenders of the universe before the toa took over. I'm sure there's a more official source out there, but I'd say that's pretty good reasoning for them not being a secret organization - especially considering how openly the toa operate. Intelligence4 (talk) 06:46, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Alright, a few new points and some (hopefully accurately) summary of what came before too so we're all on the same page.

1) @HarsulinsGhost and Intelligence4: The most relevant quote I've found on the Hand's secrecy is from from BEU's OOMN article, on p. 109: "It was decided from the outset that while TOA would be the public face of order and justice, the Order would remain hidden so that they could do things Toa could not." Since the Hand came after the Order, one could read this to mean the Hand was not secret.

2) Since the Hand disbanded in favor of Toa teams, and the first (non-Mata) Toa team formed after the Mata were put in stasis, it seems likely the Hand woke up the Mata. (That is, if we ignore Surel's MGttU quote for a minute.)

3) I think some confusion is stemming from whether the Hand and the Order are separate. BS01's Order and Hand articles seem to suggest they are different things. The Hand ended, then some time Helryx decided to create the Order. (BTW, don't know where that Helryx info comes from... it's not from BEU or BW.) MGttU has this quote, on p. 38, which leans that way too: "Axonn started out as a member of the Order's predecessor, the Hand of Artakha, and served with that organization until it broke up."

But BW and BEU suggest differently. BW never mentions the Hand, but on p. 49 it does mention that the GBs helped come up with the idea for the Order. Of course, out of universe the Hand hadn't been thought up yet. In-universe, BW is written from the perspective of Order members, so one could read that to mean Order agents viewed the Hand and Order as the same organization. In that case, the GBs came up with the Hand, not the Order, and it just got restructured/rebranded into the Order. Then BEU makes the same point pretty explicitly on p. 43: "The Hand reorganized itself as the ORDER OF MATA NUI, with many former members returning, and it continues under that name today."

I don't think that first MGttU quote is contradicting BW or BEU. Taken together, the quotes suggest OoMN has a similar history to S.H.I.E.L.D in the MCU. Originally the Hand was public knowledge like S.H.I.E.L.D. was in AoS season 1. (Or who knows, maybe the Hand was secret--BW p. 49 suggests the GBs specifically intended the Hand/Order to do dirty work after all.) But then the Hand "disbanded"/seriously reorganized into the Order and remained secret, like S.H.I.E.L.D. in AoS season 2. The Hand and Order are the same organization so to speak, just like S.H.I.E.L.D. is still S.H.I.E.L.D. after season 1 of AoS. So all three quotes so far could be construed to fit one story, one that's more or less consistent with the other canon we know. As mentioned in 2) the Hand would have awakened the Toa Mata, but other quotes (like Surel's from MGttU p. 20) can still call them the Order without being super incorrect, because the Order is like the Hand 2.0 instead of a whole new organization.

Now wait you say, this is all just mental gymnastics to get around contradictions in the canon. Yes, it totally is. But it's more or less self-consistent and (afaik) only requires us to reconsider one line in one guide, plus some Greg quotes. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 02:01, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

I don't know why we would try this hard to work around a contradiction, especially since it doesn't have much relevance as you are just kind of throwing a bunch of speculation into the mix so it makes sense, but that doesn't matter to me so much. However, I don't think you can call the Oomn and the Hand the same organization at any rate. They may be similar, and they may have the same leader, but they have always been distinguished as separate entities in the story. And shield is not a very good example, because it still had the same name and changed. That's pretty much the total opposite here.--Harsulin's Ghost (talk) 01:39, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
I have no evidence to back this up, this is just something that occurred to me, but across this whole (Thread? Topic? Dunno) one consistent assumption is that the GBs found out about Energized Protodermis at the same time as the rest of Spherus Magna. We know that the Earth Tribe knew about EP before it leaked to the surface, and we also know that at least one GB was from the Earth Tribe. So isn't it possible that the GBs had advance warning about the Shattering and started building Mata Nui before the Core War? TessilnTheMaskMaker (talk) 19:59, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

I know this hasn't been discussed in about a year, but I just stumbled upon this discussion, and I have a wrench to throw into this discussion--one I'm surprised hasn't been brought up already.

"The Brotherhood was established 100,000 years ago, within a matter of days of our own Order." --BIONICLE World, page 81, the first section in the history section.

Seeing as the Makuta were created by Mata Nui, there's no way either the Brotherhood or the Order were created in the Time Before Time/Pre-Launch/Pre-Mata Nui, taking for granted that that's all the same timeframe. One could imagine the time between Mata Nui launching and his deciding to create the Makuta was the same amount of time it took for Helryx to get the ball rolling on reforming the Hand--that or a ridiculous amount of stuff had to happen within the few days surrounding Mata Nui's activation. However, this would seem to conflict with the idea that the OONM awakened the Toa Mata in the TBT.

The only real way I can see this being resolved right now (though I haven't had much time to think on it) is if Mata Nui did not replace Tren Krom as the Great Spirit at launch, and that Mata Nui instead replaced him some time prior, being awakened, and activated the BoM around the same time Helryx reformed the OoMN. The OoMN trained the Toa Mata in the brief time before launch, and then launch happened. Unless Moris's theory is correct, this would seem to make the most sense. Greg quotes aside (since those seem to be making for further confusion) would there be any phraseology in the text citations that would contradict with this? --Gonel (talk) 15:52, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Well, what you describing seems to be exactly the series of events as they are put together on the History of Matoran Universe's saga guide page, Gonel.
It makes perfect sense to me, but I'll have to admit I have no drive right now to start digging around again, searching for quotes in every novels, guides, or Q&As, and find possible inconsistencies. Plus, it's been a while: I had to go back to the first message of this thread only to realize how much we got off track, starting with pre/post-launch events to the Core War and the GSR's construction timespans.
But, it kinda bugs me that Mata Nui would have been (partially?) awake and able to do some of his duties (like creating the Makuta species or effectively replacing Tren Krom's management of the universe) before the GSR's lauching even though the energy storms in Karda Nui didn't started yet. Maybe it's not the same case as when he went dormant after Teridax's betrayal, not able to do anything because of his comatose state, and the GBs had a way to keep this pre-launch situation sustainable without Karda Nui being ready yet to spark the energy storms. Du7734 03:36, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
One piece that bothers me through this entire thread is that there is no mention of a solid source on the OoMN being formed after the HoA was disbanded. It is something I've not seen mentioned by Greg or in the books, only on BS01. Unless there is a proper source for it, would not the case be that the Hand was active simultanously with the Order, 200 years into Matoran history (200 years post-Shattering/Launch of Mata Nui)? ~ Wolk (talk) 14:56, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
HoA's and OoMN's entries in Encyclopedia Updated seem pretty unambiguous sources to me:
"Organization [...] which predated the formation of organized Toa teams. The Hand operated for more than 200 years [...]. [...] After a time, the group's leaders realized that its members were too undisciplined and their battles caused more damage than they prevented. It was decided to disband the Hand in favor of the more efficient Toa teams that had started to come into existence. The Hand reorganized itself as the Order of Mata Nui, with many former members returning, [...]."
"Secret organization [...]. The Order was formed very early in the history of the universe, with its original members formerly part of the Hand of Artakha. [...]"
Du7734 14:03, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
I don't exactly remember if there were any other contridictions here, but https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page244#post9748-line10 seems pretty definitive about Lesovikk's team being earlier than the Mata's creation, which would allow for HoA to disband before the Mata are created, etc., etc. which should conclude with the HoA dating back at least 100,200 years ago unless I'm forgetting something. ~ Wolk (talk) 16:04, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
Greg once said that the Toa Mata were the prototype Toa Team, and every single other Toa team was made on their sample. If the Toa Mata were the prototype team, then how could the Toa Cordak and other efficient Toa teamsbexist before the mata were made and awakened? That's my biggest problem with this period actually.— Surel—Nuva (Talk) 03:29, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

See below --Gonel (talk) 05:37, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

invalid greg quote?

i've been afk for a bit here, but around nov 25 (2017) du and surel went back and forth on some edits on the timeline - pertaining to when the dark hunters were formed in relation to the barraki. du's statement about having ex-DHs in the army not being possible didn't make sense to me, so instead of changing the page, i wanted to get some clarification on that. why's greg's quote invalid? Intelligence4 (talk) 22:50, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

Far as I am aware, only their new armies, after being released by the OoMN during Teridax's reign, consisted of ex-Dark Hunters. ~ Wolk (talk) 05:38, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

"main story"

There are several (actually, a sizeable chunk of them) bullet points on the page that are simply cited as "main story". I think we should be a little more specific in those citations - what is main story? Did the information come from a book that Greg wrote? was it a short story published on bionicle.com? (ooh, typing that url gives me nostalgia) How do we decide which media was main story, and which was supplemental, or special enough to deserve it's own ref square? I think there should be more specific notation on where certain bits fo information comes from. Intelligence4 (talk) 06:54, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

I believe it is the main series books and comics aswell as the four movies, but I do agree, more specification would be handy. ~ Wolk (talk) 16:44, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Dark Hunters

Sorry but, accoring to what were the Dark Hunters formed about 70 000 - 80 00 years ago? ~ Wolk (talk) 23:01, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Post-Great Cataclysm

So, with the recent rework, events occuring after the Great Cataclysm were added. These events are already referenced on Timeline/The Dark Time. Is there any reason to move them to this timeline? --maxim21 17:54, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that they were, but there's already been overlap besides these, so I don't mind the redundancy. If it were up to me, I would prefer having one page with the entire timeline. Dag (talk) 18:06, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Date groupings

A stray thought; would it help to group by larger time periods and then just have smaller markers for specific dates? Like one section for 100,000 - 90,000 instead of separate sections for 100k, 95k, 94k, etc. I assume it wouldn't work everywhere, but it could be useful here. -- Dorek Talk external image 04:03, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

I've considered this, but don't know how exactly it would be best to break it up. Dag (talk) 04:27, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Teridax and Metru Nui

Looks like we have another contradiction. Thanks to Gonel's latest edit, I became aware of the reference in Legends #6 about Teridax being the Makuta of Metru Nui 80,000 Years Ago. However, MGttU p. 2 says "in the wake of the war, it was decided by the Brotherhood that a Makuta would watch over all inhabited regions of the universe to insure such a thing would never happen again." Greg has reaffirmed this by saying the Brotherhood did not start assigning regions to Makuta until after the civil war, 79,500 years ago. Dag (talk) 05:59, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

I firmly believe that Greg, as the author, wanted to be sure, that the readers will know which Makuta he was refering to, after the Brotherhood and the concept of the multiple Makuta was established in the Encyclopedia in 2005. And until the name Teridax wasn't decided/given they needed to name him somehow, the Mutran Chronicles is also refers to him as Makuta of Metru Nui before the Matoran Civil War for the same reason.--Surel-Nuva (Talk) 06:13, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
I don't understand what you're saying. Legends #6 says Teridax was the Makuta of Metru Nui 80,000 years ago, but MGttU says he wasn't overseeing Metru Nui until 79,100 years ago. This is a blatant contradiction in the timeline that has no apparant solution. Dag (talk) 06:17, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
Surel's alluding to the fact that, since Teridax didn't have a proper name until 2008 but the term "Makuta" was already a species name, there was no other way to specify that this was the Makuta we were familiar with besides referencing him in terms of Metru Nui. Regarding the contradiction, though, I just figure Makuta Teridax's position as "Makuta of Metru Nui" was not officiated until after the Civil War--up until that point, it was unofficial. Following the Civil War, Miserix formally busted out the map to carve out territories, and since Teridax had already unofficially served as that region's guardian, as well as owing to his exploits in the Civil War, that responsibility was cemented. To this point, the BL6 prologue, despite calling Teridax "the Makuta who guarded Metru Nui and its surrounding area," continues referring to him as simply "Makuta" and not the more official "Makuta of Metru Nui."--Gonel (talk) 06:36, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
Yes, Gonel's right. I said only the book's narration says it was the Makuta who guarded Metru Nui and its surroundings, but not by the characters, only the narrator's narration for the readers to know which Makuta was there. If Pridak, or any of the characters had called him as "Makuta of Metru Nui" it would be a contradiction, but they didn't. Only the narration, which helps the readers to identify the characters, without revealing their names, it's kind of a common thing in general, when you identify someone, whose name you don't know, by a qualificative or something, what the others will immediatly connect to him/her, the same thing happened here. Like "Hey do you remember that girl in the blue T-shirt from the airport? She was at a party last night, and you definitely wanna know what happened" and after that you keep referring to her in the story as "the girl in the blue T-Shirt" because that indicates that you're talking about her, even if she wore different clothes, but this is the qualifier that your reader will know her. The Encyclopedia was released in 2005, which features the Brotherhood of Makuta, establishing that there are more than one Makuta. Most of the books after that refers Teridax as Makuta of Metru Nui or Makuta of Mata Nui too, until his name wasn't decided.--Surel-Nuva (Talk) 06:42, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
I misunderstood the setting of the prologue. I was under the impression the Barraki and Makuta were at Metru Nui during this exchange. I know how narration works, but that wasn't the problem. It's one thing to simply call him the Makuta of Metru Nui, but then why would he also happen to be in Metru Nui, but I know now this isn't the case, so I apologize. However, there's still the timeline to work out. Currently it has Teridax's assignment to Metru Nui under both 100,000-80,000 Years Ago and 79,100 Years Ago. Was he unofficially watching it before the civil war, or was the use of the term "Makuta who guarded Metru Nui" in Legends #6 simply an anochronism for the reader's convenience? Dag (talk) 07:02, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
As I said 2 times alread, I believe it was just anochornism.--Surel-Nuva (Talk) 07:12, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
I know you did, and I agree with you, but Gonel suggests he was unofficially guarding it before the war, which is why I asked again, hopefully for more people to give input. Dag (talk) 07:16, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Avohkii hid in the Great Temple?

While reading the first edition of the Encyclopedia, I've just got through that according to the book, the Avohkii was hid in the Archives, not in the Great Temple as it was shown in the animation. Was it ever discussed whether the book or the animation is incorrect? --Surel-Nuva (Talk) 13:20, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Greg goes with the Encyclopedia here. Dag (talk) 14:27, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
Thanks! I'll update the page then. --Surel-Nuva (Talk) 15:02, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Pre-Launch 2: The Great Contradiction

Nearly all of the pre-launch questions from above sorted out here, there's only one big contradiction left, which boiled down is the central issue in the above Pre-Launch discussion. My answer to this, while not spelled out in canon, I think can be reasonably inferred.

The contradiction is as follows:

  • The Order is founded within days of the Brotherhood of Makuta.[Source: among others, BW page 81]
  • Mata Nui creates the Makuta.[Source: among others, MGttU page 1]
  • The Toa Mata are activated by the Order of Mata Nui on Daxia [an island built by the Order after its founding [Source: BW page 47, 49, BL10]
  • The Toa Mata are active and training for months before Mata Nui awakens for the first time. [BL10 Interlude 5, Epilogue]

So based on our given evidence, if the Order awakened the Toa Mata months before Mata Nui awoke, then they couldn't have been formed within days of the Brotherhood, who were created by Mata Nui.

The working solution? We can assume Mata Nui "comes" before all these other things, per the magazine timeline and also the fact that Helryx speaks of Mata Nui in the present tense in BL10 Interlude 1, which is very telling. We know that Tren Krom was governing the universe from Karda Nui, even as Mata Nui existed in the Core Processor. I think it's reasonable to assume that some of Mata Nui's programs, particularly those responsible for creating species like the Makuta, were running during these months, unzipping the matrix that the Great Beings had equipped Mata Nui with. Mata Nui's consciousness, however, was not activated until this process was done, Tren Krom was removed from Karda Nui, and Karda Nui's energy storms began.

A perfect solution? No, but I think it's justifiable, makes sense, and it lets the timeline be coherent. --Gonel (talk) 05:37, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

I was wondering, since we did ask Greg to check the Tiers of Canonicity to be fine by him, have we asked him about this or not? Or we just didn't think we could ask him to run through it to make sure he's fine with the final draft? I know all the information either came from him, or from other official sources, but it would have been a clarification to see his opinion about it.--SurelNuva (Talk) 08:26, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
I see, that makes sense. Perhaps there should be a note to explain this deduction for future reference? ~ Wolk (talk) 11:09, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
Would love to run it by Greg. Think this was one thing I wanted to get his input on before he was let go, and there's definitely still value in getting verification that it's more or less what he had in mind. I'll get a note on here in the meantime and draft an email. --Gonel (talk) 07:22, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
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