Talk:Kanohi/Other Kanohi

From BIONICLEsector01

Can the Mask of Adaptation change the wearer to breathe underwater?--FROGGER0 11:09, June 21, 2012 (CST)

I would imagine not, as that would make the Kaukau redundant. Jalaguy 02:29, 22 June 2012 (PDT)

I disagree. By that logic, you could say the Kadin makes the Miru redundant, the Volitak makes the Huna redundant, etc. Different Kanohi have different abilities, that's all, and some are wider than others. User: ToaOfGallifrey

The Mask of Adaption should be able to allow for breathing underwater, since in its original description, it was compared to the Rahkshi power and adaptive armor, both of which allow for that, but this would definitely make the Kaukau redundant. The Kadin can't allow its user to hover, but the Miru can. The Huna turns its user completely invisible, and while the Volitak can't, it also makes the user harder to hear. There are advantages and disadvantages for all of those. However, water breathing is water breathing. The Mask of Adaptation can do exactly what the Kaukau can do and more. The Kaukau only works for a limited amount at one time, like most masks, but the Mask of Adapation is always active at a low level, meaning it could let its user breathe underwater indefinitely if needed and without constant concentration. Dag (talk) 01:42, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

10 minutes example

6) Minor question, but people are wondering whether the mask of Untranslation/Incomprehension should be limited to scramble the speech of only one target at a time, or multiple. On thinking it over, perhaps multiple makes more sense; if a villain scrambles a Toa Team’s leader’s speech, okay, some confusion there, but someone else could take over for him almost right away.

The issue is, could the Rau (translation) work on multiple targets at once? If five people talk to you at once, theoretically, could the Rau be translating what they say? Obviously you’d still be unable to understand all of them (at least, assuming the Rau doesn’t handle this too :PTalking Great Rau here), since they’re talking at the same time. But would the power actually be translating more than one at a time.

If it couldn’t, then maybe Incomprehension couldn’t, and then we have an issue. :shrugs:

[b]A: Here is how you resolve your issue. Make it that the mask power does not need focus to work over a span of time. So you use it on A, it will work for say 10 minutes or something, then you do it to B, C, and D in quick succession. So it can’t be used on more than one target at once, but it CAN keep working on a target after the user has targeted someone else.[/b]

The whole 10 minutes limit was just an example, not a specific time limit. — SurelNuva (Talk) 12:33, 1 May 2017 (CET)

Mask of Aging or Inorganic Elda

Greg canonized this Matoran mask as the Mask of Aging along with the other MU masks https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2008-2010/page199#post7934-line31-33,45 - but he also said that it's an inorganic Elda due to their similarities https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2008-2010/page160#post6397-line5-10,13 https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2008-2010/page162#post6467-line14-15,22-23 (EDIT: Did not notice until after posting this that Wolk had brought this up on the Elda talk page, so sorry for the redundancy, but this could give a chance for other people to way in on the issue who didn't see it the first time). Dag (talk) 20:03, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

I knew it lol, quite frankly I'm actually happy about that. Although as it was later retconned to be a separate mask, with a unique mask power, I think it should be treated as a new mask, not just an Elda.— SurelNuva (Talk) 20:32, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Problems with the EM masks

The DM Bonesiii sent Greg lacked information that was later included in the EM topic on BZPower and is also included on this page.

  • Mask of Rebounding
    • DM: Temporarily absorb powers of those nearby.
    • BZP: A projectile thrown will be forced to bounce off its target and return to you, if the mask is activated in time. Uses a slight amount of telekinetic power, so if the user focuses on it harder, the rebounding is more accurate, mainly useful for if the user is moving.
  • Mask of Sensory Aptitude
    • DM: Improves all five senses, but not as much as an Akaku for example would improve vision.
    • BZP: Increases the ability of all five senses to a degree. For example, the amount it increases vision ability is about one fifth that of the Kanohi Akaku. The user cannot limit the effect to only one or more senses, though experienced users can slightly increase one sense while not increasing the others as much. In general, it applies to all five across the board.
  • Mask of Fusion
    • DM: Basically staff of Fusion power, or Kaita-ization, but you can merge with an enemy for a time. Example use, force an enemy to merge with you as a Kaita, walk to a place where you have the upper hand due to surroundings, and split apart again.
    • BZP: Forcibly merges two or more beings into a Kaita-style fusion, so they become a single larger being with a hivemind. The mask user maintains most of the control over the fused being and can become part of the fused being. A strong enough mind can resist the merging, and even a weak-minded enemy can interfere with your control over the merged being. The power cannot stay on forever, so eventually the target is restored to their normal forms. In battle, strategy can overcome the last weakness, if the user moves to a place where they have the upper hand. For example, if you're fighting a coastal Rahi with power to make tidal waves, move far inland. If you are trying to keep secrets and include yourself in the fusion, you need to have a strong mind to prevent the hivemind as a whole, and thus your enemy, from learning them.
  • Mask of Biomechanics
    • DM: Have limited control over mechanical robotics, if simple and near you. Examples include strengthening your own mechanical parts, or slowing down opponents' mech.parts. Cannot control clockwork brains but does give a mechanical version of telepathy with robots.
    • BZP: Enables the user to mentally interface with mechanical robotics beyond the mechanical parts of their own body and control or influence them, depending on range and complexity -- farther and more complex equals less control. A clockwork brain for instance is beyond all control, but a robotic version of telepathic communication is possible. Also gives the user a minor mechanical strength boost. Cannot control the mechanical parts of other beings without their consent, but can slow them down slightly.
  • Mask of Incomprehension
    • DM: Opposite of a Rau, it scrambles the target's speech or writing. Evil power; example use is to scramble the speech of a Toa Team's leader, so the others can't understand their orders.
    • BZP: Scrambles the speech or text of targets, preventing them from communicating plans to each other. However, it can be thwarted by a Mask of Translation and cannot affect hand signals or the like. Considered to be an immoral mask.
  • Mask of Adaptation
    • DM: Basically the Rahkshi power that adapts your body to your surroundings, or like adaptive armor.
    • BZP: Automatically adjusts the user's body to handle any and every weather or environmental condition. The power is always on at a low level, sensing the environment. If it senses need to change, the power mutates the user nearly immediately. The mutation is permanent unless the user is mutated back, so the power goes back down to a low level after mutating and the user doesn't have to worry about losing focus on the mask. However, if it is knocked off, the user is stuck in their current form. Based on the similar Kraata power.

Currently, the bolded information is incorrectly cited on this page as being from the DM despite not being stated in it, and we can't cite the BZP topic since without confirmation of Greg canonizing these details, it's still fanon material. He did say the fans that created them are in charge of coming up with these details,1 but we don't know if Greg would've had any reason to veto or change them like he did initially with Conjuring. Unless there was another private message or email sent by Bonesiii, Swert, or the Story Squad asking to canonize these extra details, I think they should be removed. Dag (talk) 21:25, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

All of these were on the page since the beginning (see the history page.) It should be pretty easy to go find the sources, and if we can't then yes we can go back to take them off. --External Image Owner (talk|contribs) 02:59, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
I knew these have been here since the beginning, especially since you were personally part of creating these mask powers, but that alone is not good reason to include it. I've searched through Greg's answers pretty exhaustively, and the only place (besides this page) that I have been able to find these details is the EM guide on BZP. This is why I asked if there was a private DM from you, Bonesiii, or the Story Squad as a follow up to Greg that had them canonized that isn't publicly known. Dag (talk) 03:15, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

I don't recall the BSS discussing the EM masks (in fact, may have been a low-key response to it...) so I don't mind removing whatever's not in the stuff that Greg read. -- Dorek Talk External Image 22:34, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

If nothing else, I feel this information would be worthwhile trivia points, as recommendations toward the application of the masks. Would keep the info on the page, even if it's denoted as ambiguously canon. --Gonel (talk) 23:18, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
Agreed, for now that may be the best way to treat these. One other thing I've noticed that Aging and Rebounding were originally called Age and Rebound; ~while the current names sound way better, these changes likewise don't seem to ever been adressed. ~ Wolk (talk) 23:29, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Bringing this up again since no other source has still been found for these additional details. I really think they did originate from the EM BZP topic, and hence are not canonized. As for moving them to Trivia, the problem is that some of them seem to contradict canon. For example, the Mask of Adaptation is said in the BZP topic to cause the user to be permanently stuck in their current adapted form if the mask is knocked off. This seems to contradict how other masks work, like the Mask of Fusion, which would break up the fusion, or how masks in general stop working at all when damaged.1 Even more so, the Mask of Adaptation is generally problematic. It was originally described by Bonesiii as "basically the Rahkshi power that adapts your body to your surroundings, or like adaptive armor." Both the Rahkshi power and Adaptive Armor allow for breathing underwater,23 so there is no reason that the Mask of Adaption shouldn't be able to as well, but this would make the Kaukau redundant.

There is also the Mask of Undeath, whose power was inspired (unless I'm wrong, which Swert can correct me) by the Matoran who wore it, specifically his blackened eyes. The problem is that Matoran can't use mask powers, so an explanation afterwards had to be given by Greg on why his eyes were black.4 A retcon of a retcon.

Also not to forget the earlier mentioned Mask of Aging, which Greg first confirmed was actually an inorganic Elda.

I don't have a problem with all the EM masks. In fact, I actually quite like Incomprehension, and even the added detail about not working on hand signals could be supported by the Rau not working on body language.5 However, I do have a problem with how they were canonized. There was no poll, no contest. They were random headcanons that Swert and Bonesiii wanted canonized. If a regular fan attempted that, the rest of the community would be furious (especially if it overwrote previous canon, which these do), as they were at times when that did happen (see the LewaKrom situation for Naho's mask). I find it frustrating that Swert and Bonesiii were exempt from this standard, and the result was contradictions. I am fully aware that decanonizing even some of these masks would undo years long standing canon and remove fan favorite masks, but BS01 must be an unbiased source of canon. Things have already been removed due to contradictions, like the Mask of Mutation being partially made from Reconstitute disks, and the Jutlin being made from Weaken disks, which were on the wiki for years before now, so this shouldn't be any different.

I know the policy here is to usually take the answer closest to when the story ended (2010-2011), which would let Aging stay, except the "earlier answer takes precedence" rule was also applied to OGDi.6 We also can't be sure that it was an intentional retcon or not since Bonesiii did not present Greg his earlier answer about the mask in his post, especially since they were a year apart. Dag (talk) 01:21, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

If the archives have been scoured and no further sources have been found, then these details should definitely be moved from the main articles. I still say that this additional information should go in the Trivia section, though. However, all these notations and contradictions should be included in the Trivia as well. --Gonel (talk) 16:59, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
Per the Behind the Scenes idea, I would definitely agree, but if these details from the BZP topic are only from there, then they are purely fanon, and shouldn't be included whatsoever. As for the other contradictions, they can still be included in Trivia, but which option should we opt for the main page? For example, should we move the Mask of Aging to Trivia and replace it with being an inorganic Elda, or vice versa? Given the situation as laid out above, I would go with the Elda answer. Dag (talk) 17:19, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
I'd argue that these details can no longer be considered "pure" fanon for a few reasons:
  • Most of these masks have been at some point or another, correctly or incorrectly, been ratified as canon.
  • Though the details you describe were never canonized with the masks themselves, the canonizations were originally based on proposals listing the details. These details were never brought to Greg, but they're important notes in the history of the conceptualization of the masks.
  • These details have been considered canon by fans for many years. Even if the noncanon details are removed, they can still provide relevant information about how the masks and their powers were originally intended to be used by those who pushed for their canonization. This information should be present for anyone wishing to make use of these masks in their own stories, or to explain why a mask was used a certain way in some story a fan had already written.
I agree with what you're saying, but at the end of the day, I think BS01 should provide all relevant information, not just materials that are pure canon (or else we'd have to excise our notes on the Xian Weapons contest, the Memoirs of the Dead and Thousand Years Untold 2, and Lesovikk's contest, all of which similarly fell short of full canonicity but are still important footnotes in BIONICLE's history). BS01 is an unbiased source of not only BIONICLE canon, but all notable BIONICLE information.
As for the Mask of Aging, my inclination is to go with Greg's earlier answer as well, with a note that it could go either way. The idea of accelerated aging in general in Bonk is pretty silly considering how TSO aged thousands of years in a matter of minutes and was still pretty formidable after the fact. I remember seeing the comparison picture you posted on Discord, and I do think there's a compelling argument to be made in favor of the idea it's an Elda with respect to its appearance. Of course, as I recall, Greg had a tendency to waver between saying the organic Inika masks looked exactly like their inorganic counterparts and saying they didn't, so overall that's going to be a pretty messy area to make sense of canonically. --Gonel (talk) 18:41, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
I understand your point, and would be fine moving them to the Trivia section, though I would still prefer them being left off entirely. I consider things like the Xian weapons and such to be different, since they, in their entirety, won community contests and were presented to Greg (except for the unresolved results like A Thousand Years Untold 2 or Lesovikk's Hiatus). For sake of completion, their entire entries should still be presented, even if some parts are considered non-canon. The difference with these EM masks is that, as I said, these details were not agreed upon by the community through a contest or presented to Greg. They are just additions to canon by one or two fans.
And yes, whether or not inorganic versions are identical to their organic counterparts is something Greg has wavered on (I could go into detail, but this might not be the most appropriate place for that topic). However, if the mask that is currently Aging is actually an inorganic Elda, that wouldn't contradict anything. If it turns out that inorganic versions are somewhat different in appearance, then there is no issue. But if they are exactly identical, then the subtle differences in Aging could simply be explained by artistic license, as is often the explanation for such differences in canon, like the Rahkshi of Heat Vision's appearance in the comics and as a Stars set. Dag (talk) 20:16, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
(Or it's just an inorganic Noble elda)--Surel (Talk) 20:38, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Starting this back up again since I recently found a BZP topic where Bonesiii discussed and defended the EM mask powers. I wasn’t involved in the online community this early on, so I’ve spent some time reviewing what Bonesiii and others said when these were first canonized. The Kaukau argument was one of if not the very first against the Mask of Adaptation, brought up by user jimmybob.[1] To this, Bonesiii responds by asking “what do you say about Miru versus Kadin,”[2] except later on, Bonesiii says that the Miru has advantages over the Kadin and vice versa.[3] The Mask of Adaptation, on the other hand, makes the Kaukau completely redundant. Bonesiii tries to argue that the disadvantage Adaptation has is that it physically mutates the user, and that it is an advantage that if the mask is knocked off or broken during this time, the user is can still breathe underwater.[4] For one, it might be advantageous to have the effect continue after the mask is knocked off in the short term, but this would mean that the user is permanently stuck breathing water, which would be a problem in the long run. Second, although he mentioned the Adaptive Armor in his question to Greg,[5] Bonesiii confirms elsewhere that the intention was for the mask to act like the Kraata power rather than the Adaptive Armor:

“Based on the similar Kraata power.”[6]

”Adaptation -- the mask resembles the style of a Rahkshi or Kraata, and Adaptation is inspired directly by the Rahkshi power of changing the body to fit the environment.”[7]

”So sounds to me like it's the armor that is mutating, not the person...this doesn't work for the Adaptation mask, because it doesn't completely cover the wearer -- only the face. For it to work it must mutate the user.”[8]

Already, Bonesiii’s assertion that the mask is always on at a low level (which is a detail he did not include in his question to Greg) is incorrect because the Kraata power of Adaptation must be consciously activated. It is the Adaptive Armor that is automatic. So the question is: since the mask is not automatically changing the user all the time, what would happen when the user deactivates the mask? If it is still as Bonesiii suggests (that it would leave the user in their current form at the time of deactivating it), how would they be able to return to their standard form without inconveniently travelling to a place that forces the mask to do so? It would seem more reasonable to say that, like all other mask powers, the effect turns off once the user deactivates the mask. Even with its power based on mutation, it could be argued that the Masks of Shrink and Growth are forms of mutation (simple size changes can be caused by mutagens, see Fenrakk and 300 Foot Mutant Venom Eel), and they cause the user to go back to normal size once deactivated.[9] Even for the Mask of Fusion (a type of mutation), both Greg and Bonesiii confirmed that, if deactivated or knocked off the user, it would cause the fusion to split up, not be permanently fused together.[10][6] The Mask of Adaptation is an unequal treatment for how mutagenic masks work (note that the Masks of Mutation and Reconstitution are exceptions because they affect targets, not the user). This eliminates the only disadvantage and one advantage compared to the Kaukau, again confirming that Adaptation makes it redundant. Both must be consciously activated, allow the user to breathe underwater (and in the case of Adaptation, more than that), and would no longer be able to do so if the mask is knocked off or damaged.

Before Bonesiii ever suggested the Mask of Adaptation, Greg initially acknowledged it as a possibility,[11] but later contradicted this.[12] Outside of this singular Greg quote, there is not much to fully decanonize the Mask of Adaptation. However, if it does remain canon, it must be significantly different from how Bonesiii has described it, which is how it has been described for the past 12 years, and unless defined very carefully, it could still cause problems. If this mask being the Mask of Adaptation is decanonized, perhaps this would give the community a chance to provide input on what it could be (I for one could see it working as a Mask of Fire).

Another thing I found interesting is that Bonesiii also said (referring to Aging) that “it also inspired the idea of using these Unknown mask shapes (which previously had been tossed around as a possible contest idea, which didn't go anywhere).”[7] One of my main concerns about the EM masks has been how they were canonized, that there was no larger community input such as a poll, but this suggests that that was the original idea, but it somehow fell through. I don’t know anything more about this, so if anyone else does, further clarification would be appreciated. Dag (talk) 02:41, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Fear/Density Control/Elemental masks

I feel like these elemental masks mostly serve to make the page bigger while just repeating information already summed up in the Trivia section of the Kanohi page. Additional details, as they apply to all of them as a rule, can also be put there, I think... Or at the very least, these could be summarized into one heading.

As for Fear and Density Control, given their hypothetical status, and lack of corrolation with any Kanoka, should be kept to Trivia. The one mask out of this set that I see us having any further details on is the Mask of Weather Control, but even then the mask's existence seems too hypothetical. ~ Wolk (talk) 17:08, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

The purpose of this page is to catalogue "Kanohi about which little is known, such as their appearance, known users, or examples of their powers," which is exactly what these kinds of masks are. I added the Mask of Reconstitution a while back, and it was no issue, even though it's only hypothetical too. I feel that the masks that are currently in the trivia of the main Kanohi page better belong here.
As for the Elemental masks, I agree it's pretty repetitive, and I debated with myself how to best add them. I decided to do as Toa Jala did and add them separately because some have information that is specific to individual ones. However, I am by no means married to this format, so I would be completely fine with something different, as long as all the information is still present in some way. Dag (talk) 17:50, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
I suppose it might be fine mentioning them with the note that they're hypothetical, in which case we should mention the others. The vision powers are a bit more wierd, it's unclear from the quote if they'd be two different masks or one mask,. Do you have a quote on the Density Control not being able to go intangible? ~ Wolk (talk) 23:29, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
I think the sentence "it is unknown if any of this mask exist or have existed" is fine to show that they're only hypothetical. And no, I don't have a quote for Density Control, but frankly I think this is one of the few instances one isn't needed. If a Mask of Density Control can exist while the Mask of Intangibility exists as a separate mask, having Density Control be able to go completely intangible would make Intangibility redundant (and Surel's point about the Akaku and Ruru from the edit summary doesn't hold since the Ruru's x-ray vision is weaker, but can do more than the Akaku, similar to the Volitak/Huna situation). Density Control would either only be able to have a weaker form of intangibility, or no intangibility at all. Dag (talk) 02:45, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
Either way, that is entirely speculative in that case. ~ Wolk (talk) 11:27, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
Not speculation, inference. It would be one thing to say that without any basis, but the existence of the Mask of Intangibility requires it. If it is fine to include non-canonized information about the EM masks, why not this? Dag (talk) 13:11, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

If I understand correctly (and I very well may not be--I haven't been following too closely), Greg specifically gave Swert and bonesiii his blessing to hammer out the details of the EM masks beyond what was directly presented to him. That is one reason why some details that never passed Greg can remain on the page. Another reason is that the additional info that Greg didn't approve provides context for the info that he did approve (cf. articles about the winners of the Xian Weapons contest). On the other hand, we can't infer that Masks of Density Control and Intangibility have different effects because there are other ways the masks may be different. Maybe both masks have the exact same effects, but they use different mechanisms to change the user's mass (like magically destroying and recreating it vs. tucking it away in some pocket dimension). I know other staff dislike cataloguing hypotheticals, but personally I don't have a strong stance on keeping vs. removing the non-elemental masks. At the very least, we should consolidate the elemental masks under one heading for brevity though. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 18:28, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

My bad, caught up on the discussion above. Yeah looks like Greg didn't give the leeway I thought he did, so let's remove that non-canon info from the page. The second reason for keeping that info doesn't really hold water if the first doesn't. My point about Density Control and Intangibility still stands though. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 18:45, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
Even if Density Control and Intangibility were different in how they work but are functionally the same (as in they both make the user completely intangible), then the Mask of Intangibility is still completely redundant. In cases of the Akaku/Ruru, Huna/Volitak, and Kadin/Miru, each mask has some advantage or disadvantage in what it's capable of. One can do something the other can't and vice versa. However, Density Control would be able to do exactly what Intangibility can do and more. The only other scenario like this is that of the Mask of Adaptation and the Kaukau, which I've already discussed and used as my reasoning for why I think the Mask of Adaption should be decanonized. Dag (talk) 20:15, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
While it's reasonable to infer there would be a downside, what that downside is is speculation. ~ Wolk (talk) 21:27, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
There can be plenty of reasons why multiple masks with the same effect may be useful. Maybe one is easier to make, or both were developed independently in different regions. Maybe creating/destroying mass requires more willpower than teleporting that mass, so a mass-teleporting mask would be more appealing to some users. Maybe a mass-teleporting mask would be useless when fighting an opponent who can block teleportation, in which case a mass creating/destroying mask would be more useful to some users. Regardless, we're getting off topic. As Wolk said, we don't have enough info to infer differences between Masks of Density Control and Intangibility, so if we decide to keep the Mask of Density Control on this page, then we shouldn't try to differentiate it from the Mask of Intangibility. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 21:34, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
That requires more assumptions than simply saying the mask cannot decrease the user's density. The fact is that no two masks (except for Adapation/Kaukau) have the exact same power, and when they do, one has a weaker form of it as well as other abilities, like the Ruru/Akaku. The simplest conclusion is that Density Control either cannot decrease density at all, only increase it, or it can decrease it, but not to the degree that Intangibility can. If the entry were reworded to say "the mask cannot cause the user to become completely intangible," there should be no issue. Dag (talk) 21:47, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, should have been clearer. I'm not proposing we add any new info. I'm proposing that, if we keep hypothetical Kanohi on this page, we change the Mask of Density Control's text to:

The Mask of Density Control is a Kanohi that allows its user control their molecular density. It is unknown if any of this mask exist or have existed.

That's all we know about the mask. Any additional info, such as only being able to increase density, not being able to turn intangible, etc. is speculation, regardless of whether or not that speculation follows the pattern you expect. And, as you have pointed out, that pattern (no mask's power is a subset of another's) isn't universal as shown by the Kaukau and Mask of Adaptation.

When I went with the creating mass vs. teleporting mass example, I didn't mean to suggest we add my assumptions instead of yours. I meant that, given what we know, we can easily draw conclusions that differ from your own (and hence, we can't infer your conclusions from what we know already). In this case, we shouldn't flesh out the article with details that require the fewest assumptions; we simply shouldn't add any assumptions at all. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 01:37, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

"Sorry, should have been clearer. I'm not proposing we add any new info."

I understood what you were saying. You were making the point that other explanations for how the two masks are different other than my own are possible, hence why we can't automatically go with mine, but I was saying your example doesn't hold because mine is still simpler (Occam's Razor).

"Any additional info, such as only being able to increase density, not being able to turn intangible, etc. is speculation, regardless of whether or not that speculation follows the pattern you expect."

"In this case, we shouldn't flesh out the article with details that require the fewest assumptions; we simply shouldn't add any assumptions at all."

My point wasn't that I made fewer assumptions that you did, I meant that I made no assumptions at all while you did. Again, its not speculation, it's inference.
Assumption: a thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof.
Speculation: the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.
Inference: a conclusion reached on the basis of evidence and reasoning.
If the Mask of Density Control and Mask of Intangibility exist and are separate, then they must be different, and the only way they can be without being functionally redundant (even if you're correct that how they decrease density is different, they would still operate effectively the same) is that Density Control cannot do something that Intangibility can, and vice versa. When all they do is either increase or decrease the user's density, the possibilities are greatly limited. Density Control would either not be able to decrease density at all, or to a smaller degree than that of Intangibility. Saying that Density control cannot make the user completely intangible covers both possibilities.

"And, as you have pointed out, that pattern (no mask's power is a subset of another's) isn't universal as shown by the Kaukau and Mask of Adaptation."

Don't misunderstand, I never said a mask can't have another mask's power as a subset of it, I only said that two similar masks must have some functional difference. The Kadin can actually fly but not hover, while the Miru can hover but not actually fly. The Volitak can't go completely invisible, but it also deafens the user, while the Huna can't deafen the user but can go completely invisible (the Mask of Intangibility also deafens the user, and being intangible makes you invisible, but the downside to it is that you can't pick up or hold anything, even weapons, and there's the risk of the user floating away). The Akaku has X-ray vision, but no night vision, while the Ruru has night vision, but not as strong X-ray vision. Again, they each have their own functional advantages and disadvantages. I brought up the Kaukau and Mask of Adaption not to show this pattern isn't universal, but on the contrary, that it is universal, and the reason for this singular exception is that Adaption is a fan created mask. No disrespect to Swert and Bonesiii, but they didn't think it entirely through. This is also evident from the fact that they modelled the Mask of Undeath's power after the appearance of the Matoran wearing it (blacked out eyes), even though Matoran can't use mask powers, forcing Greg to come up with a convoluted reason for it all to still make sense. It's on that grounds that I suggested the Mask of Adaptation be decanonized unless a good reason can be given for why it shouldn't be able to let the user breathe underwater, but I fail to see how that would be possible. Either way, it would no longer be an exception to the pattern, so it holds.
I would be perfectly fine with your rewrite of the entry, but I just anticipate confusion between it and Intangibility by some people, hence the added note. Dag (talk) 17:21, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
Just something your last sentence makes me think of. The quote about the Mask of Density Control is from a little bit before the Mask of Intangibility appeared in the story, unless I'm mistaken. Could they be the same thing with just a different name, or an early one? --maxim21 18:10, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
@Dag: (Be warned, this is sort of stream of consciousness.) I think we're largely on the same page here. I agree that your explanation is the simpler one and stands up better to Occam's Razor. I disagree that it requires no assumptions at all though, which is why I'm hesitant to put it on the page. I don't think we can fairly dismiss the Water Breathing/Adaptation example to apply your rule, since even though Adaptation is fan-made (and perhaps wasn't thought out fully), it is still canon, so there is precedent for a fan-made mask (like Density Control) not bringing anything new to the table. But even if we do apply your rule, maybe the hypothetical Mask of Density Control does allow for full intangibility, but not for nearly as long as a Mask of Intangibility. Then both masks would still bring something unique to the table despite both allowing complete intangibility. (I should have brought up that possibility earlier, but I just thought of it now haha.) Actually, based on our one Greg quote, we don't even know if the Mask of Density Control affects the user or an outside target, so there's another possible difference between the masks. (The Density Control Makuta power only applies to the user, but that doesn't necessarily mean Density Control always has that restriction. IIRC Makuta can only teleport themselves, but other beings can teleport targets.) Actually, after rereading that quote, I'm revising my stance a bit. Since we only have a name for this mask and nothing else, I think we should at most leave it as a trivia point, maybe on the Mask of Intangibility page. (Something like, "When asked on BZPower, Greg Farshtey confirmed that a Mask of Density Control may exist. It is unclear what, if any, differences would exist between this hypothetical mask and the Mask of Intangibility.")
@maxim: Good thinking. The Mask of Intangibility is mentioned in The Many Deaths of Toa Tuyet, which came out on June 11, 2007. The Mask of Density Control quote was posted to OGD on July 1, 2007. So the Mask of Intangibility probably came first, but tbf there may have been a delay between Greg's PM about the Mask of Density Control and scotttjt's post in OGD. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 19:52, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
On the other hand, thanks to Dag's recent edit on the page, after the Mask of Intagibility became official, Greg, kinda, found the concept of the Mask of Density Control redundant.--Surel (Talk) 20:06, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
I don't want to continue the Kaukau/Adaptation point since it's rather off topic under this section, but all I will say is that I think the discussion needs to be had on how Adaptation letting the user breathe underwater doesn't make the Kaukau redundant, or if Adapation can't do that, what the canon reason for that might be. If an answer can't be given, it should be seriously considered whether decanonizing Adaption is a necessary action. But as Greg said, "if it's fan-created, then the fan is the one who needs to come up with the rules of how it works,"1 so it may have to wait until either Swert or Bonesiii weigh in.
As for working on either the user or a target, Intangibility is confirmed to work the same as Makuta Density Control, and only work on the user, not any target or object (I don't know if there was any doubt this was the case anyway, I was just able to find the sources that confirm it), so again, there's no reason to believe the hypothetical Mask of Density Control would be different from these in that regard.
I think moving the info to the trivia section on the Intangibility page is a fine compromise, for the time being at least. Dag (talk) 20:19, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Cool. I've made that change, and feel free to edit the trivia text. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 04:23, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

It is said that the Elemental masks gives the user Toa-level elemental powers, but the Garai, which is the mask of Gravity, can only increase of decrease the target's gravity. Which is not the full extent of a Toa's elemental power, only an ability. Should we consider it to be a psuedo elemental mask, or the other types are too OP compared to the only confirmed one? Seeing as the Avohkii and Kraahkan both have additional powers, they are not just elemental masks, but a bit more.--Surel (Talk) 06:22, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
I hope my Sandbox didn't cause too much controversy :/ although I'm honored that it was taken into consideration. I agree, listing the Elemental Masks individually was messy and I'm glad Wolk came up with a more organized solution.
If it's easier for the Kanohi mentioned to stay in Kanohi#Trivia, then maybe we should do that. I was really just playing with the idea of expanding this page. I acknowledge that the lack of information on these masks (Density Control, Fear, Stasis Fields, Heat/Laser Vision, Weather Control) makes it difficult to write about them. However, I strongly feel that the Elemental Masks section should stay on this page because we have a decent amount of information on the nature of elemental Kanohi as a rule.
-- Toa Jala Converse 07:18, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
Surel, I agree that there is somewhat of a contradiction there, but is that also not what Toa of Gravity do? There's at least two quotes saying it's made from the Toa Disk, the latter guessing it is close to a Toa's level, and another four different quotes saying it is on level with Nuhvok-Kal and Toa of Gravity, disregarding experience using the power, and yet another stating the Noble gives Turaga-level powers. There's also this quote which is a mouthful. ~ Wolk (talk) 13:17, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
Sounds to me like he's saying more or less the same thing in all of these. The Garai has the same level of power as Nuhvok-Kal, but Hewkii never tapped into the mask's full potential during the story. In a fight between Nuhvok-Kal vs a Garai-user, Nuhvok-Kal would win because he has more experience. Just my interpretation. -- Toa Jala Converse 23:37, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Honeslty - weird they haven't been brought up yet - I feel like Remove Poison, Freeze, and Weight Increase kind of should go on here as well. There's much more of a prededence than ~there is for Fear/DC... ~ Wolk (talk) 06:48, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

I'm all for it. I just didn't bring them up yet because I was hoping to find any more information about them other than that they could exist, like I did for Reconstitution. Dag (talk) 14:18, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
I guess one question is how to phrase them given that their title is not know. Mask of "Freeze", with quotation marks? ~ Wolk (talk) 19:47, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
I think giving them the name of their respective disk is fine unless specified otherwise, so "Mask of Freezing" should work. Dag (talk) 19:56, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
But what's the point of a Mask of Freezing, when we already have a Mask of Ice? Guys, I do believe that some kanoka powers were only meant to be kanoka powers, and weren't forged into pointless masks, which would exactly do the same thing, but requires to be mentally triggered. The main point of a kanoka disk is that anyone can use them, and they don't really require someone, who's capable of using them, like Kanohi. Yes, hypothetically every disk can be forged into a Kanohi, but logically it doesn't even make sense, because using a disk in some of these occasions makes more sense than using a mask, if the powers are exactly the same. Otherwise only the matoran and the other non-kanohi users would use disks.--Surel (Talk) 02:49, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
The fact that they are canonically possible means that they should be mentioned to some degree, so a more productive question would be "what makes them different, and what advantages/disadvantages do each have?"
For example, Greg said a Mask of Increase Weight would be like "half a Garai,"[1] but the Garai cannot work on the user[2][3] while Increase Weight should be able to, just like how the Miru works, which is probably a Gravity based power as well.[4]
However, you do bring up a valid point about how Freezing is apparently made redundant by a Mask of Ice, which can do more than freeze.[5][6][7][8] I don't know what advantage Freezing might have exactly, but I do think it would have one, thus justifying the separation. This also applies to Reconstitution and Mutation. Since the Mask of Mutation allows the user to control the mutation, what other advantage might Reconstitution have? Or maybe, in actuality they are the same power, meaning the Mask of Mutation cannot actually control the mutation. Although debatable due to conflicting quotes, this could be supported by when Greg approved the Mask of Mutation being made (solely, presumably) from Reconstitute disks.[9]
These questions probably won't ever get answered without clarification from Greg, but it's still better than just ignoring the fact that some of these masks can exist. Dag (talk) 04:10, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
Additionally, viewing them as redundant because of the elemental masks... The elemental masks are rare or next to inexistant, as far as we know. Additionally, Psionics majes Telekinesis, Telepathy, Mind Cobtrol, to an extent, Illusion and Rebounding, and surely something I've forgotten, very, very redundant. ~ Wolk (talk) 04:36, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
I would still go with quotation marks to signify that the title is not official. In a similar sense to Freeze > Freezing, I assume it'd go as Remove Poison > Poison Removal, Increase Weight > Weight Increase, Mind Scramble > Mind Scrambling, and Weaken > Weakening. However, it's not safe to say these are the official titles, as RAR becomes Reconstitution. ~ Wolk (talk) 21:13, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Maybe Surel has a point. While it's logical to assume that all Kanoka powers can be made into Kanohi, we don't have confirmation that this is the case. We do, however, have sources stating that the powers of Fear, Density control, Stasis Fields, Poison, Reconstitution, Weight Increase, Heat Vision, and Laser Vision, and all Elemental Kanohi (besides Sand), can be made into Kanohi. Maybe we should make a separate section in Other Kanohi for a list of masks that COULD be made, but may not have ever existed. I should reformat my sandbox with that in mind. -- Toa Jala Converse 16:54, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Not a bad idea! ~ Wolk (talk) 17:08, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
Here it is. I included Fear and Reconstitution here as well, since it is unknown if they have ever existed. -- Toa Jala Converse 17:23, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Kraata Power Kanohi

I hate to be persnickety; I know this exchange [1] has Greg confirming that "most if not all" Makuta (or Kraata) powers can be made into Kanohi, but he didn't specify whether it was most powers or all powers. Claiming that there can be a Mask of Elasticity, for example, based on this dialogue is an assumption on our part. IMHO, we should stick to the powers that have been explicitly confirmed, unless there is a different source that specifically says, "All Kraata powers can be made into Kanohi." -- Toa Jala Converse 19:49, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

We also can't just assume that only sleep, confusion, anger, insect control, or chain lightning are possible masks from this quote. The question wasn't about those only, they were just mentioned as examples. Unless there are some Kraata powers that were said elsewhere to specifically not be mask powers, I don't see why they can't all be listed as possible Kanohi (in fact, most of them are masks already, this quote just fills in the few that haven't been confirmed before). Dag (talk) 20:22, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
Not including them isn't assuming they don't exist. But since it isn't specified *which* of the powers are being referred to here (and doesn't say *all), it's an assumption to say that *all* are possible. I agree they should not be included here; at best we can say "Greg has also said most Kraata powers may be possible as masks." ~ Wolk (talk) 21:30, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Bringing this back up because I came across another relevant quote:

3: Is it possible for other Makuta powers to exist in Kanohi form?

3) Anything's possible

The vague wording implies that just because something is possible, doesn't mean that it is, but since we are labelling these masks only as hypothetical, it shouldn't be an issue. With both of these quotes, I think we should add the rest of the Kraata/Makuta powers. Dag (talk) 22:49, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Greg says anything is possible, but over the years he's outlined a number of things that are not possible in BIONICLE (time travel, EP turning Turaga back into Toa, Masks of Sand), so there's some contradiction in that statement. IMO though, we should stick with the ones that have been positively confirmed. That said, it is ultimately the staff's decision whether or not to include every single Makuta power as a hypothetical Kanohi. -- Toa Jala Converse 17:11, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
Right, but those examples he has directly confirmed to not be possible. As far as I know, he has not done so for any of the Kraata powers being Kanohi. If it were just this one quote, sure, but again, we have both, which I think is enough to include them all. Dag (talk) 18:10, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't think "Anything's possible" should be used as evidence of, well, anything. I get that there's a difference between confirming what isn't possible and what is, but there's gotta be a line somewhere. We've long had a stance against hypotheticals, and I know that's been flexed a lot recently, but this would be a bridge too far. We're not a reference for fanon, we're a reference for canon. -- Dorek Talk External Image 20:47, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm not saying that "anything's possible" alone confirms it (which it doesn't), but that the two quotes together should be enough to say they could exist (again, not that they definitely do, but can). Also, how is suggesting that these masks could exist from these two quotes fanon? It would be fanon with nothing to back it up, but that's not the case. I really do think that from these two quotes in tandem, we can add the rest of the Kraata powers as possible Kanohi. The page already has "additionally, Greg Farshtey has surmised that there may be masks of most, if not all, Kraata Powers," citing the first quote from this topic. Listing every power individually would be saying basically the same thing, just more explicitly. If there is reason that the rest of the powers can't be assumed from these quotes, that's one thing, but what you're suggesting is (if I'm understanding you correctly) that even if they were directly confirmed to be possible, it's not necessary to be listed, which I have a problem with. I honestly don't understand the reluctance to list hypotheticals. If it's canon, BS01 should add it. Dag (talk) 21:46, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
I think the current wording, "that there may be masks of most, if not all, Kraata Powers" suffices for this purpose. And there is a reason why they can't be assumed, the question reads, "Most, if not all", not simply "All". ~ Wolk (talk) 22:49, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
I agree with Wolk that, if we do want to include hypothetical Kanohi on this page, then the current wording is good. Personally, I don't think it's fair to read those two quotes together to conclude that all Makuta powers can be made into masks.
As for hypotheticals, Greg said here that every time a character makes a choice, a new alternate universe springs up where that decision played out differently. Put together enough of those decisions, and you've got a wild alternate universe that is, by some totally weird measure, "canon." Hopefully we'd all agree that universes like that don't belong on BS01. It's an extreme example, but it goes to show that just because a hypothetical is possible, that doesn't necessarily mean it belongs on BS01. As Dorek said, there's a line somewhere, so the question becomes where that line is.
That's purely an editorial decision, and everyone draws the line a little differently. Traditionally, BS01 has taken a really conservative approach. In my opinion, hypotheticals generally don't belong on the wiki unless they lend some deeper understanding into their subject matter. (Tbh my standards aren't concrete enough that I could articulate them 100%, but that rule's a big part of it.) For example, Dag, you recently added some info to the Hau article about how the mask would behave if someone magnetically removed it from a user's face. It's a purely hypothetical scenario, but in my opinion it's worth including because it lends readers more insight into how the Hau works. Same goes for that blade of grass example you added to the Sanok page. However, listing out many (or all) of the Makuta powers on this article doesn't add anything. They're just names. Listing them doesn't teach readers anything new about how the masks would work, or how they're made, or who would use them. For that reason, I think we should remove the Makuta powers already listed on this page and just keep that sentence Wolk mentioned. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 07:50, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
If we're going to go with the idea that, from these two quotes, we can only assume most, but not all, Makuta powers can exist as Kanohi, we don't know which ones are possible and which ones aren't from those two quotes alone. Removing the ones listed would be removing the other quotes where Greg said those specific powers are possible, which completely goes against the fundamental purpose of BS01. Dag (talk) 16:37, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
Going with Morris' comparison, there should hypothetically be a universe where the Great Beings decided to make Kra-Matoran instead of Av-Matoran. Theoretically, such a universe exists, but Greg didn't say that it exists. If he'd mentioned it off-hand, then we'd have reason to record it, but he didn't. In an infinite multiverse, it probably exists, but we can't record it because it was never confirmed. Meanwhile, the Great Spirit Makuta Dimension was confirmed, and so however arbitrary it seems, we have a reason and a duty to record it, so it makes sense that it's included in Locations/Alternate Locations.
If the Wiki's stance is against hypotheticals as Dorek said, then perhaps it would be better if we were to get rid of the Hypothetical section and keep "Freezing", Reconstitution, Weather Control, and "Weight Increase" in the main section of the page, seeing as we have a) confirmation that the masks could exist and b) some idea of how they would work. -- Toa Jala Converse 20:31, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Good idea Jala. Isn't that basically what happened with the Mask of Healing? Could be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure it was entirely fleshed out as a hypothetical mask through Greg quotes until a BZP poll gave it to one of the Toa Mangai. It was listed on this page even before that poll. So I'm on board with giving Weather Control, etc. their own sections.

As for the other powers (the ones that are just names), how about something like this for the hypothetical Kanohi section?

Kanohi can be created with powers beyond those seen or alluded to in official media. Greg Farshtey has surmised that Kanohi may be created with the following powers.

Farshtey has stated that there are likely no masks with the power of Acid.[7]

  1. 1.0 1.1 1.2 1.3 1.4 1.5 "Official Greg Dialogue", page 161, post 6406. BZPower. (archived on The Great Archives)
  2. "Official Greg Discussion", page 228, post 9117. BZPower. (archived on The Great Archives)
  3. 3.0 3.1 3.2 "Official Greg Dialogue", page 63, post 2514. BZPower. (archived on The Great Archives)
  4. 4.0 4.1 "Official Greg Dialogue", page 236, post 9432. BZPower. (archived on The Great Archives)
  5. "Official Greg Dialogue", page 236, post 9432. BZPower. (archived on The Great Archives)
  6. "Official Greg Dialogue", page 160, post 6376. BZPower. (archived on The Great Archives)
  7. "Official Greg Dialogue", page 160, post 6388. BZPower. (archived on The Great Archives)

The section is no longer "here are hypothetical Kanohi," but instead "here are hypothetical Kanohi that Greg has explicitly talked about." Hopefully this difference is a good compromise. By this standard, we list the Rahkshi powers that Greg explicitly approved. We also leave out ones like "weakening" because yes, even though they may exist, Greg has never explicitly talked about them (consistent with Jala's suggestion for what is noteworthy on BS01). But because this text sets a clear standard for what masks deserve mention, the lack of a Mask of Remove Poison can't be read to mean "Masks of Remove Poison aren't possible."

What do you think of this setup? Any suggestions on how to improve the wording? -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 04:58, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

I do think the Kanoka power masks should be mentioned, as by proxy of the Kanoka existing, they are confirmed Kanohi powers even if never forged (there's also the deal with clarifying that Weaken is not the Jutlin); otherwise I think this fine. (T~ Wolk (talk) 12:31, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Fear is a Kraata power, so it can fit under the Kraata powers section. Perhaps for Kanoka, we can add something like this:

  • All Kanoka powers
    • Mind Scrambling
    • Remove Poison
    • Weakening

-- Toa Jala Converse 14:58, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

The setup on the page right now looks good for me! Dag, what do you think? -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 16:15, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
This is fine for me. I was going to mention the Mask of Reconstitution, but I saw it was put up further on the page along with others. Dag (talk) 17:00, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Using Bonesiii as a source for the EM masks

Twice Greg has said that any questions regarding how the EM masks work should be directed to Bonesiii[1][2] and Bonesiii considered everything in the EM topic that doesn't reference the EM directly to be canon.[3] Is this grounds to cite the EM topic and potentially anything else Bonesiii has said about these masks? Dag (talk) 18:13, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

New Hypothetical Kanohi

I just found a quote that says that Elemental and non-Elemental disks can be combined. With all the different sections at the bottom of this page for hypothetical Kanohi, where would this fit?

https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2013-2017/page136#post7121366-line3,9

The Jerminator (talk) 18:46, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

It's already mentioned on the Mask Making section of the Kanoka page. Since the quote is about disks specifically, I don't think it needs repeating here. Dag (talk) 19:12, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
And more-so, not about individual powers. We don't have entries for "The Mask you get when you combine Freeze, RaR and Teleport", because we have no idea what that power would be. No reason we'd need one for "The Mask you get when you combine RaR and Plasma". (Also, if the Olisi can't be made with any of the Kanoka, and it's a regular Great mask, and non-legendary masks can be forged back into Kanoka, doesn't that technically make the Olisi a bonus base Kanoka power? :thinking:) ~ Wolk (talk) 20:35, 25 November 2021 (UTC)