Talk:Toa Mangai

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I don't know if I am right but I do remember Greg saying that there could be more Toa Mangai out there. Didn't he post it in a blog or a Farshtey Feed or Something. For some reason I feel like I remember it being heard. Kazi22 11:33, 3 July 2012 (PDT)

I don't remember that. There are more Mangai that we haven't met out of the 11, but they are all dead except Tuyet. ζω·τωμανα•external image

Unless one went rogue and ran off, or one was put in an alternate universe like Tuyet, or if one was BROUGHT from an alternate universe etc. - FROGGER0 12:54, 5 July 2012 (PDT)

Healing

I'm (surprisingly) not a huge fan of rocking the boat, so while the easy route would simply be locking the page along with Mask of Healing, I'm just going to let it be known that I am displeased with the way the poll was handled, and do not think that the on-the-fly additions, subtractions, and overall amendments should be ignored just because "it looks like X was winning". Polls are difficult at the best of the times, and work most effectively when the decision is well-informed and unbiased. As far as I'm concerned, neither party (Greg or the voters) was working from all of the facts, when they very easily could have been. Instead, the poll was done too hastily and without proper judgment (not to mention inundated with loud minority voices, but I'm willing to accept that as part of the game), resulting in the invalidation of votes, when in fact those votes probably shouldn't have been invalidated in the first place (a double whammy, and my vote being one of them is among the many reasons I'm peeved). The fact that a recount isn't even being considered is an immense shame, in my opinion, since the fact that there is any controversy at all would normally at least put a pause in the conversation, and a recount is among the easiest of things to possibly do.

In short, I have no solution to this, and it's possible that I'm the only one who feels this way. As always, I only ask for intelligence, planning, and forethought when it comes to crafting things like these, otherwise it's just an insult to all of the fans, regardless of their stance. -- Dorek Talk external image 07:34, 4 December 2014 (CET)

We could at least redo the poll. I would expect the Mask of Healing to still win, but that way it's a little bit more fair and there are fewer hurt feelings. I'll post in the LMB thread about the Mask of Rahi Control so that Greg can weigh in. --Angel Bob (talk) 15:07, 4 December 2014 (CET)

Anybody with some sense absolutely should have realized that starting over and doing a fresh recount should have been the appropriate thing to do. The entire poll was a mess from the start and I never even felt like contributing to it because I thought it would get restarted as a result... Oops. --~|RC|~ (Talk/Contribs)

Well bonesiii thought that the poll didn't need a recount. --Boidoh (talk) 22:58, 5 December 2014 (CET)
That's one other person, out of several dozen who were involved. How much could it hurt to do the poll over again? Most people will just vote for the same thing anyway. --Angel Bob (talk) 23:41, 5 December 2014 (CET)

Follow up

I dropped out of the loop on this while it was still going on, but whatever happened with the voting on masks and tools of various characters? Did it stop with the mangai, or were there other affected pages?Intelligence4 (talk) 22:23, 10 July 2015 (CEST)

Adventures or Death?

I was reading the Toa Mangai page not to mention Toa Lhikan's and it states that several of the other Toa Mangai left for adventures of their own or were killed. So here is the question. Could it be possible that some of the other Toa Mangai escape death and is it possible for Greg to 100% confirm it again because the page left me confused. (Don't get me wrong it would be nice if some actually escaped). Cheers, Kazitan----- Talk

He meant that the 300 Toa of the Toa-Dark Hunter War went on adventures, and 11 Toa remained on Metru Nui, who are called Toa Mangai by us I'd say. — Surel—Nuva (Talk) 20:30, 28 March 2017 (CET)
@Surel Nuva: Doubtful, but if that's the case, it should not be mention on this page: the distinction between the Toa Mangai and the Toa Army was always made.
Off the top of my head, the "left Metru Nui for missions/new adventures" was never a definitive thing, even after the Toa-DH war: some of the Toa Mangai could left the city and then go back so that the others can do the same. But if some of them left Metru Nui forever after the war, it's not a problem either: Teridax would be likely to think they still represent a threat for his plan, to keep a stready eye on them, and to kill them off thanks to Eliminator or even the Rahi Nui.
But yeah, this situation is unclear, some quotes research must be done. Du7734 22:11, 20 June 2017 (CET)
I just stumbled upon this quote, which gives more insight into what happened to the Mangai:
https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page234#post9341-line7,16,20,25
The Jerminator (talk) 18:14, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Citation?

Does the original post by Nuhrii the Metruan introducing this into canon still exist somewhere? I don't believe it's in the OGD. —Planetperson 04:24, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Not by Nuhrii the Metruan, but here is confirmation of the team name, assuming that is what you are asking for: https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2008-2010/page134#post5332 Turaga of Force (talk) 05:50, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Added source for the meaning of "Mangai" and "Mangaia". Well, the best sources I can find.

I've added sources for mangai and mangaia meaning "protector" now, but they're kind of dubious. It's the best we can get, unfortunately. I've added one that is a URL to the original forum thread, though it's never been archived so we can't really do anything with it sadly. But I added it because I've also added where I found it, which was the talk page for the Toa Mangai page on the Fandom/Wikia BIONICLE Wiki. I've also added a source pointing there. I've also added a source pointing to another third party source, a Polish BIONICLE fan community forum's thread directly mentioning the Nuhrii the Metruan thread, made only a few days after the original forum thread was posted. I hope that this is alright. Maybe, however, it should be a note thing instead, pointing to the different pages? It sucks we can't get better than this. Maybe somewhere, out there, someone has an offline archived version... we can always hope, and ask people. Lukas Exemplar (talk) 21:32, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Please reread BS01's policy on other wiki's:

3.5) Other Wikis are not to be mentioned. As with the previous rule, the name of other Wikis, unless approved, are not allowed on BS01 Wiki. If you mention the name on this Wiki, then you will be warned. After the warning, if you continue to break this rule, then we will ban you for a number of days, depending on the decision of the staff member who bans you.

Dag (talk) 22:06, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
Seems a bit old-fashioned, like it would have made more sense during the actual run of BIONICLE when there was a lot more traction to the site, but alright. What about just keeping the source to the the Polish forum thread? It directly mentions the thread and what it entailed. Lukas Exemplar (talk) 00:02, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
EDIT:And yes, it's a broken link, but I think it should be mentioned somewhere on the site that this was the original URL to the forum thread. If only there was a way someone could use it to find an archive somewhere out there, even if the chance is slim. Maybe that is very unnecessary, I don't know. Lukas Exemplar (talk) 00:04, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
Dag, a curt dismissal is not called for here. As you have noted before, navigating BS01's web of often implicit rules can be confusing. (The written rules still need revising, but idk when there will be time for it :/.) Even if someone makes an unacceptable edit, please try to correct them respectfully so we do not dissuade them from contributing.
Lukas, thanks for digging into this. Written rule or not, documenting how you found the original BZP link seems like a legit reason to link to the Wikia. (Fandom wiki? Idk what to call those wikis now.) Since those links require context, I agree that we should collect them into a note. I'll do that now. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 07:00, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
I thought I was respectful in how I corrected Lukas. Also, this rule is very much not implicit. It says clearly that other wiki's are not to be mentioned (the only exceptions being BS01 sister sites). If this rule is outdated, then please revise it, but I acted exactly how that rule would require. Dag (talk) 16:19, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
I am sorry, for I feel I came off off-standish towards you personally, though that was not the intention of my initial reply. I am glad that this is getting looked into now, too. And I do think that these kind of things, with the other wikis and such, are a slippery slope, but I felt there could be made an exception in cases like these, but I am not sure what others think... Lukas Exemplar (talk) 19:08, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

I mentioned implicit rules to illustrate why we should explain violations respectfully. That principle applies even if the rules seem obvious. When someone writes a thoughtful comment asking if something is allowed, a brief response telling them to reread the rules comes off as rude, regardless of intent. When I asked you to be kinder, you dismissed my perspective without demonstrating any attempt to understand it. And more importantly, you didn't attempt to make things right with Lukas. So my point about showing kindness still stands....

I'm trying to be kind and understanding of your perspective too. I hear you and agree that the rules should be improved. Hopefully, over the next few months, I will have time to work with the other staff on a new version. And you're right that Lukas's edit to the article broke the written rules (until I gave him permission). That said, you did *not* act exactly the way the rules require. When we go by the written policy, then your original comment, the tone of which reads like a warning, and which Lukas took as a warning based on his edit description, is an instance of illegal moderating that violates the Block Policy. For reference, the rule is below.

We appreciate users keeping an eye out for each other. However, actual enforcement of rules should be handled by the staff. Attempting to order other members around or hand out judgment is not the call of the average member. Staff members were chosen for their ability to fairly determine how to deal with the other members, so please trust their judgment.

I don't mean to make a mountain out of a molehill here, nor do I mean to put you on blast. I understand and appreciate that you didn't mean to come off harshly. Regardless, I'm writing all this out to make my perspective as clear as possible. If we're each more mindful of how our comments will read to others, BS01 will be a more pleasant place for everyone. If any of this doesn't make sense, lmk and we can discuss it more. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 00:50, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Deaths

While we have the fates of most of the Toa Mangai listed as unknown, I think that they are pretty clearly intended to be dead. Here are the sources:

I get the hesitancy to confirm something like this, but we have accepted things for far less. I would edit the page directly, but seeing as this will be a fairly major and likely to be controversial change, I want to at least discuss it on the talk page first. Firespitter Lhii (talk) 20:06, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

The reason they are unknown is in large because some left Metru Nui well before Makuta took over the city: https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page95#post3787-line5-6,9-10 https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2008-2010/page61#post2440-line3-4 https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2008-2010/page322#post12853-line5,17 ~ Wolk (talk) 20:28, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Leaving the city

I believe three different instances are being conflated:

  • The Toa Mangai were frequently on missions outside the city. This includes during the events of The Many Deaths of Tuyet, and during the events of the First Rahi study.
  • Over time, some of the Toa Mangai left the city to seek adventures elsewhere. These Toa presumably did not return and may still be alive.
  • Teridax/Dume 'recently' (as of Legends of Metru Nui) sent the remaining Toa Mangai on missions from which they did not return.

See my sandbox page. I'll try get this integrated later this week if I find the time. ~ Wolk (talk) 15:38, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

I want to first off clearify for any looking at the "disputed" notice that this is/was refering to a dispute between myself([User:Firespitter Lhii]), and [User:Surel-nuva]. I understand, and the dispute was previously about whether or not they had been sent out before. I have now seen with the most recent edit as of writing this that the citation now there, which was previously only at the end of the following sentence, which I had believe it was just related to the Underwater Rahi Study(it wasn't that much of an error on Surel-nuva's part, but the double citation should probably be kept). I have kept the disputed mark, though, because there is still a bit more to talk about. First is the matter that the quote only really seems to be saying that it has happened generally in the past, not the specifically that they all came back or anything. Second, we know that Eliminator killed all the Toa Mangai "who remained on Metru Nui". According to the current page, the Toa Mangai(not specified if just some or all) were sent on missions by Teridax/"Dume". We have been told that Eliminator wasn't sent to kill all of them, and it has been implied that the Toa Mangai who were sent out by "Dume" were dealt with later and that, though unlikely, some may have survived. The reason I bring this up is that we know Lhikan "remained" on Metru Nui, though wasn't killed by him, and clearly some if not all of them would have been killed by Eliminator. It seems that when Greg say those "that remain", he could quite possibly be refering to Toa Mangai that remained/were on Metru Nui prior to Teridax usurping and disguising himself as Dume. We don't really know though. If Lhikan was there because he was the only one not sent on a mission and dealt with outside of Metru Nui, then it seems Eliminator would not have killed any, when we know at least 2 were killed, while one a mission that could be considered "out of the city". If they aren't included in the group sent out, then we have to fix things saying Lhikan was the only one, or the Greg quote is wrong. I want to get this out there as-soon-as-possible, so I have not added links to the things I am saying in this comment, though I may go back and change that(any links besides the BS01 link to the archived version of the page that you see were added later). I just want to clear this up and to not leave User:Wolk in the crossfire. Firespitter Lhii (talk) 21:01, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
First thing first, I purposfully left the part in, which implied that some of the Toa Mangai left to go home. I did not change that part, which may imply that some are still alive, or died, just not by Eliminator. I restructured it to match the quote which I've added, which says that some of those Toa, who went to other missions, later returned to the city, which explains why only Lhikan was around the First Rahi Study and why neither Lhikan or the Matoran were suspicious that the remaining other Toa were sent into random missions which may or may not led to their deaths by the false Turaga. Nothing implies from that specific quote how many of them remained on Metru Nui or how many of them were not killed by Eliminator. You completely misunderstood the entire situation.--SurelNuva (Talk) 21:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
I do want to apologize. I did act a little hastily, and I probably was a little harsh. I didn't realize that the source was related to the previous sentence, and even in the last edit before Wolk did a huge overhaul, I feel like the wording was professional, but slightly confusing and ambiguous. I just thought that this was a case of someone being overly quick or enthusiastic about making an edit without citing or discussing it, but it seems I was wrong. I personally think that the current version Wolk has is probably best, and I am satisfied with it. Assuming you are too, that resolved all my concerns and I think it resolves all yours, so whether or not you forgive, I think, or at least hope, that we can move on from this. Firespitter Lhii (talk) 02:43, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
Apology accepted, but next time please read through the source and check the context back before you start an editing war on something that is explained in the quote. I wasn't just quick and enthusiastic about it, I tend to think I'm already through that phase after these years, I just had a very long and tiring day and wasn't about to mention everything in the summary, because I thought reading through the cited quote is sufficient enough, so I apologize too, if it came out differently, I was just tired. :) --SurelNuva (Talk) 04:20, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Note removal

As I said in the summary, the quote is Greg misremembering what the book says. According to the quote "there is a reference we wrote in the book that 1000 years before LOMN, legend states that Lhikan and 9 (or 10, can't remember now) other Toa came to Metru Nui to fight it" but the Rahi Beast guide actually says "A creature of legend, the great Kanohi Dragon is a mysterious beast that seemingly vanished from Metru Nui more than a thousand years ago." and "According to Vakama, Toa Lhikan and ten of his comrades fought a great battle against the creature and drove it away long, long ago." Since 4000 years ago, what was established in the Encyclopedia and Legacy of Evil, is still more than a thousand years ago, it does not contradict what was established before, so the Greg quote is irrelevant.--SurelNuva (Talk) 13:59, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

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