I thought I should Quickspeak this point before I did any editing. The Template lists the Makuta possessing Kraata Powers and Shapeshifting, but Shapeshifting is a Kraata Power. Should we simplify the list in the template, or leave shapeshifting out on its own as being more notable than the other 41 powers? ζω·τωμανα•
I'm not sure when the above was posted, but in light of the recent edits to the template, it's relevant again. when makuta shapeshift or mind-read, they aren't using a separate power, they are using a kraata power. so in the template, we should say something like "shapeshifting, telepathy, among other kraata powers" or something. another thing i just thought of is that, correct me if i'm wrong, but in the kingdom AU teridax made his elemental shadow powers into kraata... so it seems to me that makuta just have all these powers, along with the ability to make a kraata that possesses one of these powers. either way, if we list "kraata powers" in the template, then individual kraata powers shouldn't be singled out for double listing as well. if we did, how would we decide which ones to single out? Intelligence4 (talk) 08:45, 16 April 2014 (CEST)
- Telepathy isn't a Kraata power. Mind Reading is not telepathy. Relevant Greg quote:
- 3) I found a slight problem with Teridaxs usage of power in last years Dreams of Destruction. Of all the 42 Kraata powers, none are Telephaty, the closest being only Mind Reading, possibly Illusion and Confusion. How then did Teridax implant terrible thoughts and dreams into Karzahnis head, and tear his mind into shreds?
- 3) Telepathy is a non-kraata power all Makuta have
- As for the shapeshifting one, the Makuta can change their mass while shapeshifting, unlike the Rahkshi - that's not entierely the same power.
- telepathy = mind reading. what else could it be?
- source for those greg quotes?
- makuta cannot change their mass while shapeshifting, without first absorbing mass, hence the reason that teridax had to absorb nidiki, krekka, and nivawk before becoming the large titan he was during the great cataclysm. even if he could, it's still just a more powerful version of what the rahkshi can do, which holds true for all kraata powers. besides, a being wouldn't have two versions of the same power at the same time.
- Honestly, the Karda Nui Makuta used Telepathy so often in '08 that it appears Greg himself forgot they didn't have it as a Kraata power. If you really want to do things by the book, though, consider it the natural extension of Mind Reading. Point is, I'd say it's one of their Kraata powers, just distorted by author amnesia. --Angel Bob (talk) 23:15, 16 April 2014 (CEST)
That depends on how strictly you want to define "mind reading". Telepathy is the ability to send and receive information mentally. Mind reading could be defined as one way, you can only receive information. As to them being Kraata powers, I've kinda changed my mind from the above. Since telepathy and shape shifting are particularly prominent among the 42 powers, it might be worth it to have them listed separately. ζω·τωμανα•
- Frequency of use doesn't mean they aren't kraata powers, or more powerful than another power, and as i said above, why list them twice like that since they only "have" the power once?
- "i've changed my mind..." "it might be worth it to list them separately..." so do you support removing them from the listing?
- remember my other proposal, "telepathy & shapeshifting, among other kraata powers"
- when do we close the debate and consider a decision to have been made? Intelligence4 (talk) 05:36, 17 April 2014 (CEST)
Considering my original thought was to remove them from the listing, changing my mind means I would like them to be separately listed within the template. As in, not combined underneath "Kraata Powers."
- Frequency of use does indeed affect whether or not they are Kraata powers, but it certainly does elevate them in importance over, say, Cyclone or Silence. We've seen a lot of Kraata powers demonstrated: the original six, Chain Lightning, Density Control, Rahi Control, Teleportation, Gravity... but Shapeshifting and Telepathy are ones that stick out among the arsenal of power that is the Kraata Powers (assuming Telepathy is a Kraata Power). It isn't really "listing them twice," it's mentioning them specifically because they are of greater interest/importance.
- On the subject of Telepathy as a Non-Kraata power, I would note that the Kraata Power of Mind Reading doesn't extend beyond being about to read the mind of a subject. Check the Kraata Variations page. Even the most powerful Kraata stage can only read the mind. We've seen Teridax do a whole lot more. Namely: communicate information and manipulate minds--even tearing Karzahni's apart. If anything, Mind Reading is a subset of Telepathy, which is a subset of Psionics in general.
Makuta's kraata powers go beyond that of a rahkshi, always. If we wish them to standout, then we should say, "shapeshifting, telepathy, among other kraata powers." Intelligence4 (talk) 08:10, 17 April 2014 (CEST)
- Source of the greg quote: the archive made by fishers64 on BZPower, available here.
- This one was posted Mar 27 2008, 07:59 AM by pirakahakann in Greg Dialogue file.
- As it has been said by Zo;Tomana, Mind Reading only allow to read thoughts whereas telepathy also allow to plant thoughts in another being's mind - as said in the quote.
- As for shapeshifting, I have never heard anything about the Makuta having greater control than the Rahkshi over any other Kraata power than Shapeshifting.
- And we have seen cases where a being has several times the same power (Takanuva with the Avohkii), and it just seems to be the stronger one that is used, so that would be the same with shapeshifting for the Makuta. Furthermore, there is already a duplicate of their powers amongst the Kraata Powers, Darkness. Maxim21 (talk) 08:34, 17 April 2014 (CEST)
It's not necessarily in terms of "greater" or "less than", it's just that the ability is different. Rahkshi definitely don't absorb mass to shapeshift, which is a defining part of how the Makuta operate. It's like the Mahiki; creating holograms and shapeshifting are two wildly different power expressions, but they both fall under the umbrella term of "illusion". Powers can have a heirarchy, and the Makuta have two abilities that are distinct enough from their Kraata powers as to be separately noted. -- I AM THE DOREK do not truffle with me 20:11, 19 April 2014 (CEST)
- absorbing mass deals with the shadow hand power, which is used in conjunction with, but still separate from, the shapeshifing power. so technically, which shapeshifting, makuta don't change their mass either. i still vote we should say "shapeshifting, telepathy, among other kraata powers." that way it still specially notes them, yet still includes them as the kraata powers they are. (The preceding unsigned comment was made by Intelligence4)
- Well, their Shapeshifting also allow them to shrink and stock extra mass in another dimension. They can change their mass. That's not the exact same power as the Rahkshi. Similar, but not the same.
- So about, this GregF quote on LMB. The question is: "BS01 is currently having a discussion about makuta's shapeshifting and telepathy powers.... are they just kraata powers, or do they have shapeshifting and telepathy powers that are in addition to the ones afforded by the kraata powers?"
- And the answer: "I don't recall where we landed on this. I would assume they are kraata powers."
- In my opinion, that's clearly not a confirmation and should not be taken as one. Maxim21 (talk) 19:59, 22 April 2014 (CEST)
- "I would assume they are kraata powers." That, along with all the points discussed above, is enough to conclude that they are kraata powers. Intelligence4 (talk) 20:13, 22 April 2014 (CEST)
It's actually always a terrible idea to go with Greg's assumptions, none the least of which is that it's been many years since any of this was fresh (he's told us that much in the past himself).
Telepathy is very clearly out since we have back-in-the-day confirmation. With that in mind, it's not impossible for Shapeshifting to be a different power as the one seen in Rahkshi, and considering how differently it is used, I'm surprised it's an issue. If we had seen a Rahkshi of Shapeshifting at any point, it might be a different story, but we haven't. -- I AM THE DOREK do not truffle with me 02:15, 23 April 2014 (CEST)
- What was the thing from before that shows that telepathy isn't a kraata power? also, the article covers those powers, so if we removed them from the infobox, it's not inaccurate, while it is possibily (probably) inaccurate if we keep them there.
- You could look at the previous discussion and see that it was sourced in an earlier Greg quote from back when he was fresher on the subject. Telepathy =/= the same thing as mindreading. Psionics is the overall power category, telepathy being a subset, and mindreading being a subset of telepathy.
- And yes, we know shapeshifting is listed as a Kraata Power on the Kraata variations page. That would be the reason this discussion even exists. The argument for listing it separately is the inherent difference in the power that the Makuta exhibit which does involved changes of mass (though they cannot exceed the total possessed mass without absorbing extra mass). I do remember that being a thing, but THAT is the thing we need a source for. ζω·τωμανα•
- Greg quotes about Makuta changing mass while shapeshifting:
- Q: Can you tell me if I have the Makuta shapeshifting power mass thing down? A Makuta can become smaller, but looses that mass and must absorb more mass if they want to grow bigger or grow something, right?
- A: They only need to absorb others if they are low on energy and need to grow big in a hurry. If they have normal energy, they dont need to absorb others to gain mass. Absorbing others is a shortcut.
- File Greg Dialogue; by ewpw posted Jul 31 2008 08:41
- Q: So, Makuta can change their mass when shapeshifting by "storing" their extra mass, like in a dimensional pocket or something, removing or taking in mass as needed. But if they lose mass they already had (as Teridax did when he fought against the Toa Hagah), then they cant generate new mass out of thin air and must regain it by absorbing from elsewhere (i.e. Dark Hunters). Am I correct?
- A: Correct.
- File Greg Dialogue; by Master of the Rahkshi posted Mar 16 2008 06:28
- Q: If Makuta cant take out the absorbed mass, how can Makuta shapeshift into smaller form?
- A: Obviously the mass is shunted off somewhere else when they shrink, the same way it is when a Toa uses a Mask of Shrinking.
- File Greg Dialogue; by The Shadow Makuta posted Mar 7 2008 09:08
- Q: How come Icarax is bigger than the other Makuta?
- A: Because he did not shapeshift into something smaller as they did.
- File Greg Dialogue; by ~ShadowBolt~ posted Feb 9 2008 10:33
- Q: If Makuta shapeshifted into smaller form, do they need to absorb new mass to become bigger?
- A: No. Normally, they can retrieve their old mass, providing they have the strength to do so. In the case of LOMN, Makuta was recovering from a fierce battle and so needed to absorb others to gain mass quickly.
- File Greg Dialogue; by The Shadow Makuta posted Mar 21 2008 08:32
As lovingly pointed out to me by a certain Kraata flash maker...
"Dark Gray/Bright Yellowish Green Shapeshifting Has total control over its own shape, although its mass cannot change."
(from the Kraata Variations page, level 6)
The page states that Makuta have extensive knowledge of the universe and how it works, listing as one example Teridax raising columns out of the Silver Sea. But in this source, Greg Farshtey says that he assumed it was a defense system for the city, which Makuta just activated. Should we edit the page for this, or is this technically knowledge of the MU and how it works? Keplers (talk) 22:02, 1 July 2014 (CEST)
- I never quite knew where the original explanation came from, but I'm always hesitant on some of the newer stuff Greg says, especially since it's always caged in uncertain terms. I'm going to say no for now (and as you say, it can technically fall under the current wording, even if I don't think that's what the spirit of the original answer was) but it's a good thing to keep in mind. -- I AM THE DOREK do not truffle with me 01:45, 3 July 2014 (CEST)
- I think we should include it - it specifies what kind of "special knowledge" he had of the matoran universe - his knowledge of the defense system allowed him to manipulate it. the old explanation didn't really make sense anyway, and now that Greg has provided us with an elaboration, i think we should use it. Intelligence4 (talk) 20:14, 3 July 2014 (CEST)
- Well, you've highlighted the disparity in the two. I didn't read it as them having to do with each other; they seemed like separate answers because it's been years since the question was relevant. I'd love to see the original answer so we could get clarification, but I generally understood it to be referring to matter manipulation (and don't we see that later in the Karda Nui story as well?), even if that's a weird explanation. -- I AM THE DOREK do not truffle with me 20:28, 3 July 2014 (CEST)
When/how was it revealed that "makuta" was in fact teridax, and that there were other makuta? i've been going back and looking through the bionicle legends source material, and the "brotherhood of makuta" is mentioned countless times, but did we know what that truly was back in 2006? Intelligence4 (talk) 22:42, 3 July 2015 (CEST)
- Teridax's name wasn't officially revealed until 2008, in BL9. The debut of another actual Makuta was in 2007 (Icarax), during the serials, though various hints and Greg answers suggested as much beforehand.
- I couldn't tell you when exactly we got explicit confirmation that there were multiple Makuta, although 2006 sounds reasonable enough, perhaps toward the end. -- Talk 22:51, 3 July 2015 (CEST)
All Makuta have control over the following elements:
- Shadow (obviously)
- Jungle/The Green
- Psionics (from telepathy and illusion)
My question is this: should we put the Makuta species under all these elemental categories? I'm not suggesting doing this will ALL Makuta, just the species. Thoughts? -- Toa Jala Converse 00:55, 26 May 2016 (CET)
- Hrm... I didn't realize we had so many elemental categories, but it makes sense. Why not, I suppose? -- Talk 02:02, 26 May 2016 (CET)
- Very few beings other than Toa have Toa-level elemental powers, but we categorize them according to element, anyway. Roodaka has only limited Shadow powers, and Tahnok have a relatively low degree of control over Fire, but they're still under their appropriate categories. If having Toa-level power was a requirement, our elemental categories would be much, much smaller. -- Toa Jala Converse 08:43, 28 May 2016 (CET)
- I don't think that was stated anywhere (besides Shadow, obviously). All they can really do is project it, they can't absorb it, for instance. -- Talk 07:23, 29 May 2016 (CET)
I'm pretty sure the makuta have weaker control over each of these elements, except shadow obviously - for one, if they were stronger, then rakhshi could best a toa every time, and for another makuta can only do specific things with these powers, not have actual control over the element, as they do with shadow. for example, with air all they can do is either make a cyclone, or create a vacuum, and they can only do one at a time. I kinda get what you're saying about adding them to the element tags; while i still disagree somewhat, i won't argue against it if it happens. that said, i think adding each individual makuta would just be clutter - the species is enough i think. Intelligence4 (talk) 08:25, 29 May 2016 (CET)
I'd say no. Technically yes, they have powers that correspond to the elements, but they're not really associated with any elements except Shadow. I think that's an important distinction to make between being associated with an element and having control over that element. For example, Agori are powerless, but they definitely have elemental affiliations. Another sort of weird example since it's a mask power, but Nuju doesn't belong in the Psionics category just since he wore a Mask of Telekinesis--his element is Ice. I think the same goes for Makuta. -- talk) 06:37, 7 June 2016 (CET)(
- But the Agori aren't in the elemental categories. Only the tribes are. Gresh and Vastus are in the Air category because they control Air, but they're not in the Jungle category even though they're part of the Jungle Tribe. Takanuva's in the Shadow category because he controlled Shadow at one point, but was obviously never associated with Shadow. Or what about the Dark Hunters? Many of them have elemental powers, but are any of them really affiliated with one element or another? -- Toa Jala Converse 07:03, 7 June 2016 (CET)
- Huh, you're right about the Agori. Whoops. :P So I guess do we want the categories to reflect elemental powers, or elemental associations? Or both? It seems like the categories focus more on elemental powers right now. If we want to keep that, then yeah, add those categories to the Makuta pages. Either way, this is a good opportunity to establish what exactly the categories should mean for the future. -- talk) 07:14, 7 June 2016 (CET) (
Do you think the ability to dissolve Kaita is a Makuta power, or did Teridax have some tech that could do it? -- talk) 03:21, 5 February 2017 (CET)(
- I think its a Makuta power. Greg originally said (FarshteyFeeds & OGD) that Teridax learnt from Tren Krom how to control the MU's & Mata Nui (island) weather, but after in the LMB he said that he just used some kind of protective system. And Teridax didn't have any special powers. -- Surel—Nuva (Talk) 12:37, 5 February 2017 (CET)
- Also, for the fist source counts, the Mata Nui and Metru Nui page should reflect that. So shouldn't be: "Teridax learned how to access and control this system,", it should be that "Teridax learnt from Tren Krom [via Mutran] how to control the weather in the Matoran Universe". -- Surel—Nuva (Talk) 21:18, 5 February 2017 (CET)
- Hmm alright, I guess we can leave the Kaita dissolution for now. I may want to follow up with Greg on that though (although he may not have an answer as that was before he was a big player in the story team).
- As for the other point, really those sources aren't inconsistent with each other. Tren Krom knew how to control the weather and so forth because he was in charge of the MU before Mata Nui took over, so he knew how to operate the systems of the robot. If you want to add that Tren Krom taught Teridax how to operate various systems, that's fine, just be sure to cite as always. -- talk) 23:36, 5 February 2017 (CET) (
- i haven't at any of the edits yet to know what you guys are talking about, but why would makuta need to use TK's knowledge to control the weather? weather control is a makuta power. as for kaita: in the original book when that happened, it was simply stated that the kaita couldn't exist in his lair because he was a force of destruction - so i'm inclined to think that it's something innate that he could do as a makuta. Intelligence4 (talk) 17:25, 6 February 2017 (CET)
- Before Mutran met Tren Krom, the Makuta didn't know (or just forgot) that they're living inside of a giant Robot. Tren Krom knew how to control the robot, and when Mutran met him, he "absorbed" the knowledge and shared with Teridax. And Tern Krom demonstrated his powers over the robot when he created large stone spikes which was very similar what Teridax did in the LoMN. -- Surel—Nuva (Talk) 12:10, 7 February 2017 (CET)
Right, but making spikes and stuff isn't controlling the weather - controlling the weather would be stuff like fog, rain,snow, etc. He didn't need to access any special robotic systems to control the weather, that's just a regular makuta power. Intelligence4 (talk) 07:15, 8 February 2017 (CET)
- But creating an earthquake, what Teridax did in one of the '01 comics is not weather control. -- Surel—Nuva (Talk) 09:11, 8 February 2017 (CET)