Talk:Makuta (Species)

Shapeshifting

I thought I should Quickspeak this point before I did any editing. The Template lists the Makuta possessing Kraata Powers and Shapeshifting, but Shapeshifting is a Kraata Power. Should we simplify the list in the template, or leave shapeshifting out on its own as being more notable than the other 41 powers? ζω·τωμανα•

I think you should list it as a Kraata Power.--FROGGER0 Ribbit

I'm not sure when the above was posted, but in light of the recent edits to the template, it's relevant again. when makuta shapeshift or mind-read, they aren't using a separate power, they are using a kraata power. so in the template, we should say something like "shapeshifting, telepathy, among other kraata powers" or something. another thing i just thought of is that, correct me if i'm wrong, but in the kingdom AU teridax made his elemental shadow powers into kraata... so it seems to me that makuta just have all these powers, along with the ability to make a kraata that possesses one of these powers. either way, if we list "kraata powers" in the template, then individual kraata powers shouldn't be singled out for double listing as well. if we did, how would we decide which ones to single out? Intelligence4 (talk) 08:45, 16 April 2014 (CEST)

Telepathy isn't a Kraata power. Mind Reading is not telepathy. Relevant Greg quote:

3) I found a slight problem with Teridax’s usage of power in last year’s Dreams of Destruction. Of all the 42 Kraata powers, none are Telephaty, the closest being only Mind Reading, possibly Illusion and Confusion. How then did Teridax implant terrible thoughts and dreams into Karzahni’s head, and tear his mind into shreds?

3) Telepathy is a non-kraata power all Makuta have

As for the shapeshifting one, the Makuta can change their mass while shapeshifting, unlike the Rahkshi - that's not entierely the same power.

Maxim21 (talk) 09:14, 16 April 2014 (CEST)

telepathy = mind reading. what else could it be?

source for those greg quotes?

makuta cannot change their mass while shapeshifting, without first absorbing mass, hence the reason that teridax had to absorb nidiki, krekka, and nivawk before becoming the large titan he was during the great cataclysm. even if he could, it's still just a more powerful version of what the rahkshi can do, which holds true for all kraata powers. besides, a being wouldn't have two versions of the same power at the same time.

Honestly, the Karda Nui Makuta used Telepathy so often in '08 that it appears Greg himself forgot they didn't have it as a Kraata power. If you really want to do things by the book, though, consider it the natural extension of Mind Reading. Point is, I'd say it's one of their Kraata powers, just distorted by author amnesia. --Angel Bob (talk) 23:15, 16 April 2014 (CEST)

That depends on how strictly you want to define "mind reading". Telepathy is the ability to send and receive information mentally. Mind reading could be defined as one way, you can only receive information. As to them being Kraata powers, I've kinda changed my mind from the above. Since telepathy and shape shifting are particularly prominent among the 42 powers, it might be worth it to have them listed separately. ζω·τωμανα•

Frequency of use doesn't mean they aren't kraata powers, or more powerful than another power, and as i said above, why list them twice like that since they only "have" the power once?

"i've changed my mind..." "it might be worth it to list them separately..." so do you support removing them from the listing?

remember my other proposal, "telepathy & shapeshifting, among other kraata powers"

when do we close the debate and consider a decision to have been made? Intelligence4 (talk) 05:36, 17 April 2014 (CEST)

Considering my original thought was to remove them from the listing, changing my mind means I would like them to be separately listed within the template. As in, not combined underneath "Kraata Powers."

Frequency of use does indeed affect whether or not they are Kraata powers, but it certainly does elevate them in importance over, say, Cyclone or Silence. We've seen a lot of Kraata powers demonstrated: the original six, Chain Lightning, Density Control, Rahi Control, Teleportation, Gravity... but Shapeshifting and Telepathy are ones that stick out among the arsenal of power that is the Kraata Powers (assuming Telepathy is a Kraata Power). It isn't really "listing them twice," it's mentioning them specifically because they are of greater interest/importance.

On the subject of Telepathy as a Non-Kraata power, I would note that the Kraata Power of Mind Reading doesn't extend beyond being about to read the mind of a subject. Check the Kraata Variations page. Even the most powerful Kraata stage can only read the mind. We've seen Teridax do a whole lot more. Namely: communicate information and manipulate minds--even tearing Karzahni's apart. If anything, Mind Reading is a subset of Telepathy, which is a subset of Psionics in general.

There isn't really a "debate" closed point. Eventually we either come to a consensus or just become okay with what the template is like XDζω·τωμανα•

Makuta's kraata powers go beyond that of a rahkshi, always. If we wish them to standout, then we should say, "shapeshifting, telepathy, among other kraata powers." Intelligence4 (talk) 08:10, 17 April 2014 (CEST)

Source of the greg quote: the archive made by fishers64 on BZPower, available here.

This one was posted Mar 27 2008, 07:59 AM by pirakahakann in Greg Dialogue file.

As it has been said by Zo;Tomana, Mind Reading only allow to read thoughts whereas telepathy also allow to plant thoughts in another being's mind - as said in the quote.

As for shapeshifting, I have never heard anything about the Makuta having greater control than the Rahkshi over any other Kraata power than Shapeshifting.

And we have seen cases where a being has several times the same power (Takanuva with the Avohkii), and it just seems to be the stronger one that is used, so that would be the same with shapeshifting for the Makuta. Furthermore, there is already a duplicate of their powers amongst the Kraata Powers, Darkness. Maxim21 (talk) 08:34, 17 April 2014 (CEST)

It's not necessarily in terms of "greater" or "less than", it's just that the ability is different. Rahkshi definitely don't absorb mass to shapeshift, which is a defining part of how the Makuta operate. It's like the Mahiki; creating holograms and shapeshifting are two wildly different power expressions, but they both fall under the umbrella term of "illusion". Powers can have a heirarchy, and the Makuta have two abilities that are distinct enough from their Kraata powers as to be separately noted. -- I AM THE DOREK _{do not truffle with me} 20:11, 19 April 2014 (CEST)

absorbing mass deals with the shadow hand power, which is used in conjunction with, but still separate from, the shapeshifing power. so technically, which shapeshifting, makuta don't change their mass either. i still vote we should say "shapeshifting, telepathy, among other kraata powers." that way it still specially notes them, yet still includes them as the kraata powers they are. (The preceding unsigned comment was made by Intelligence4)

Well, their Shapeshifting also allow them to shrink and stock extra mass in another dimension. They can change their mass. That's not the exact same power as the Rahkshi. Similar, but not the same.

As for telepathy, I really don't understand why you want to list it as a Kraata power when it has explicitely stated as a non-Kraata power. Maxim21 (talk) 09:12, 20 April 2014 (CEST)

So about, this GregF quote on LMB. The question is: "BS01 is currently having a discussion about makuta's shapeshifting and telepathy powers.... are they just kraata powers, or do they have shapeshifting and telepathy powers that are in addition to the ones afforded by the kraata powers?"

And the answer: "I don't recall where we landed on this. I would assume they are kraata powers."

In my opinion, that's clearly not a confirmation and should not be taken as one. Maxim21 (talk) 19:59, 22 April 2014 (CEST)

"I would assume they are kraata powers." That, along with all the points discussed above, is enough to conclude that they are kraata powers. Intelligence4 (talk) 20:13, 22 April 2014 (CEST)

Seconded. In the absence of a clear confirmation, it's most accurate to go with Greg's assumption. If he really had no clue, he'd have said that. --Angel Bob (talk) 21:59, 22 April 2014 (CEST)

It's actually always a terrible idea to go with Greg's assumptions, none the least of which is that it's been many years since any of this was fresh (he's told us that much in the past himself).

Telepathy is very clearly out since we have back-in-the-day confirmation. With that in mind, it's not impossible for Shapeshifting to be a different power as the one seen in Rahkshi, and considering how differently it is used, I'm surprised it's an issue. If we had seen a Rahkshi of Shapeshifting at any point, it might be a different story, but we haven't. -- I AM THE DOREK _{do not truffle with me} 02:15, 23 April 2014 (CEST)

What was the thing from before that shows that telepathy isn't a kraata power? also, the article covers those powers, so if we removed them from the infobox, it's not inaccurate, while it is possibily (probably) inaccurate if we keep them there.

On seeing a shapeshifting rahkshi, the kraata variations page lists shapeshifting as a rshkshi power. Intelligence4 (talk) 02:25, 23 April 2014 (CEST)

You could look at the previous discussion and see that it was sourced in an earlier Greg quote from back when he was fresher on the subject. Telepathy =/= the same thing as mindreading. Psionics is the overall power category, telepathy being a subset, and mindreading being a subset of telepathy.

And yes, we know shapeshifting is listed as a Kraata Power on the Kraata variations page. That would be the reason this discussion even exists. The argument for listing it separately is the inherent difference in the power that the Makuta exhibit which does involved changes of mass (though they cannot exceed the total possessed mass without absorbing extra mass). I do remember that being a thing, but THAT is the thing we need a source for. ζω·τωμανα•

Greg quotes about Makuta changing mass while shapeshifting:

Q: Can you tell me if I have the Makuta shapeshifting power mass thing down? A Makuta can become smaller, but looses that mass and must absorb more mass if they want to grow bigger or grow something, right?

A: They only need to absorb others if they are low on energy and need to grow big in a hurry. If they have normal energy, they don’t need to absorb others to gain mass. Absorbing others is a shortcut.

File Greg Dialogue; by ewpw posted Jul 31 2008 08:41

Q: So, Makuta can change their mass when shapeshifting by "storing" their extra mass, like in a dimensional pocket or something, removing or taking in mass as needed. But if they lose mass they already had (as Teridax did when he fought against the Toa Hagah), then they can’t generate new mass out of thin air and must regain it by absorbing from elsewhere (i.e. Dark Hunters). Am I correct?

A: Correct.

File Greg Dialogue; by Master of the Rahkshi posted Mar 16 2008 06:28

Q: If Makuta can’t take out the absorbed mass, how can Makuta shapeshift into smaller form?

A: Obviously the mass is shunted off somewhere else when they shrink, the same way it is when a Toa uses a Mask of Shrinking.

File Greg Dialogue; by The Shadow Makuta posted Mar 7 2008 09:08

Q: How come Icarax is bigger than the other Makuta?

A: Because he did not shapeshift into something smaller as they did.

File Greg Dialogue; by ~ShadowBolt~ posted Feb 9 2008 10:33

Q: If Makuta shapeshifted into smaller form, do they need to absorb new mass to become bigger?

A: No. Normally, they can retrieve their old mass, providing they have the strength to do so. In the case of LOMN, Makuta was recovering from a fierce battle and so needed to absorb others to gain mass quickly.

File Greg Dialogue; by The Shadow Makuta posted Mar 21 2008 08:32

I didn't find anything that state clearly whether or not that's the Rahkshi power, but that seems to make the Makuta power quite different from the Rahkshi/Kraata power. Maxim21 (talk) 09:21, 23 April 2014 (CEST)

As lovingly pointed out to me by a certain Kraata flash maker...

"Dark Gray/Bright Yellowish Green Shapeshifting Has total control over its own shape, although its mass cannot change."

(from the Kraata Variations page, level 6)

That, in conjunction with some of those Greg quotes, settles it. -- I AM THE DOREK _{do not truffle with me} 02:03, 24 April 2014 (CEST)

I think I found something that could lead to the Makuta’s shapeshifting power being put as being distinct from their shapeshifting kraata power besides their mass changing.

Here is the link https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page159#post6331

Since this only applies to Antidermis and they loose physical kraata powers when they are just in their Antidermis forms this shows that it could be considered separate in their power listing.

I also found some applications of this shapeshifting that is distinct from the shapeshifting kraata power.

Here is the link https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page189#post7523

Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 01:59, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Metru Nui

The page states that Makuta have extensive knowledge of the universe and how it works, listing as one example Teridax raising columns out of the Silver Sea. But in this source, Greg Farshtey says that he assumed it was a defense system for the city, which Makuta just activated. Should we edit the page for this, or is this technically knowledge of the MU and how it works? Keplers (talk) 22:02, 1 July 2014 (CEST)

I never quite knew where the original explanation came from, but I'm always hesitant on some of the newer stuff Greg says, especially since it's always caged in uncertain terms. I'm going to say no for now (and as you say, it can technically fall under the current wording, even if I don't think that's what the spirit of the original answer was) but it's a good thing to keep in mind. -- I AM THE DOREK _{do not truffle with me} 01:45, 3 July 2014 (CEST)

I think we should include it - it specifies what kind of "special knowledge" he had of the matoran universe - his knowledge of the defense system allowed him to manipulate it. the old explanation didn't really make sense anyway, and now that Greg has provided us with an elaboration, i think we should use it. Intelligence4 (talk) 20:14, 3 July 2014 (CEST)

Well, you've highlighted the disparity in the two. I didn't read it as them having to do with each other; they seemed like separate answers because it's been years since the question was relevant. I'd love to see the original answer so we could get clarification, but I generally understood it to be referring to matter manipulation (and don't we see that later in the Karda Nui story as well?), even if that's a weird explanation. -- I AM THE DOREK _{do not truffle with me} 20:28, 3 July 2014 (CEST)

I feel like it would have been listed as such if it was "matter manipulation", whatever that means. Also, where is that seen in the Karda Nui storyline? Intelligence4 (talk) 03:02, 6 July 2014 (CEST)

question...

When/how was it revealed that "makuta" was in fact teridax, and that there were other makuta? i've been going back and looking through the bionicle legends source material, and the "brotherhood of makuta" is mentioned countless times, but did we know what that truly was back in 2006? Intelligence4 (talk) 22:42, 3 July 2015 (CEST)

Teridax's name wasn't officially revealed until 2008, in BL9. The debut of another actual Makuta was in 2007 (Icarax), during the serials, though various hints and Greg answers suggested as much beforehand.

I couldn't tell you when exactly we got explicit confirmation that there were multiple Makuta, although 2006 sounds reasonable enough, perhaps toward the end. -- Dorek _Talk 22:51, 3 July 2015 (CEST)

Elemental Categories

All Makuta have control over the following elements:

• Shadow (obviously)
• Sonics
• Magnetism
• Gravity
• Lightning
• Plasma
• Air
• Jungle/The Green
• Psionics (from telepathy and illusion)

My question is this: should we put the Makuta species under all these elemental categories? I'm not suggesting doing this will ALL Makuta, just the species. Thoughts? - Toa Jala ^Converse 00:55, 26 May 2016 (CET)

Hrm... I didn't realize we had so many elemental categories, but it makes sense. Why not, I suppose? -- Dorek _Talk 02:02, 26 May 2016 (CET)

I don't think we should tag the makuta under each elemental affiliation - they didn't have full elemental control over those elements (besides shadow, obviously) just certain little powers that were derived from them. (like cyclone and vacuum from air) Intelligence4 (talk) 22:13, 27 May 2016 (CET)

Very few beings other than Toa have Toa-level elemental powers, but we categorize them according to element, anyway. Roodaka has only limited Shadow powers, and Tahnok have a relatively low degree of control over Fire, but they're still under their appropriate categories. If having Toa-level power was a requirement, our elemental categories would be much, much smaller. - Toa Jala ^Converse 08:43, 28 May 2016 (CET)

And the Makuta have stronger control over the elements (plasma, magnetism, gravity) than the Toa. -- Surel-Nuva (Talk) 09:56, 28 May 2016 (CET)

Do they? I thought theirs were slightly weaker. :/ - Toa Jala ^Converse 07:19, 29 May 2016 (CET)

I don't think that was stated anywhere (besides Shadow, obviously). All they can really do is project it, they can't absorb it, for instance. -- Dorek _Talk 07:23, 29 May 2016 (CET)

Well, either way, they do have those powers, and so into the elemental categories with them! Next question: should we in fact put all Makuta under those categories? For the sake of consistency, it makes sense, but I think it'd be silly in this case. - Toa Jala ^Converse 07:34, 29 May 2016 (CET)

I'm pretty sure the makuta have weaker control over each of these elements, except shadow obviously - for one, if they were stronger, then rakhshi could best a toa every time, and for another makuta can only do specific things with these powers, not have actual control over the element, as they do with shadow. for example, with air all they can do is either make a cyclone, or create a vacuum, and they can only do one at a time. I kinda get what you're saying about adding them to the element tags; while i still disagree somewhat, i won't argue against it if it happens. that said, i think adding each individual makuta would just be clutter - the species is enough i think. Intelligence4 (talk) 08:25, 29 May 2016 (CET)

I'd say no. Technically yes, they have powers that correspond to the elements, but they're not really associated with any elements except Shadow. I think that's an important distinction to make between being associated with an element and having control over that element. For example, Agori are powerless, but they definitely have elemental affiliations. Another sort of weird example since it's a mask power, but Nuju doesn't belong in the Psionics category just since he wore a Mask of Telekinesis--his element is Ice. I think the same goes for Makuta. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 06:37, 7 June 2016 (CET)

But the Agori aren't in the elemental categories. Only the tribes are. Gresh and Vastus are in the Air category because they control Air, but they're not in the Jungle category even though they're part of the Jungle Tribe. Takanuva's in the Shadow category because he controlled Shadow at one point, but was obviously never associated with Shadow. Or what about the Dark Hunters? Many of them have elemental powers, but are any of them really affiliated with one element or another? - Toa Jala ^Converse 07:03, 7 June 2016 (CET)

Huh, you're right about the Agori. Whoops. :P So I guess do we want the categories to reflect elemental powers, or elemental associations? Or both? It seems like the categories focus more on elemental powers right now. If we want to keep that, then yeah, add those categories to the Makuta pages. Either way, this is a good opportunity to establish what exactly the categories should mean for the future. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 07:14, 7 June 2016 (CET)

But not each individual, just the species page. Intelligence4 (talk) 02:20, 16 June 2016 (CET)

Kaita dissolution

Do you think the ability to dissolve Kaita is a Makuta power, or did Teridax have some tech that could do it? -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 03:21, 5 February 2017 (CET)

I think its a Makuta power. Greg originally said (FarshteyFeeds & OGD) that Teridax learnt from Tren Krom how to control the MU's & Mata Nui (island) weather, but after in the LMB he said that he just used some kind of protective system. And Teridax didn't have any special powers. -- Surel—Nuva (Talk) 12:37, 5 February 2017 (CET)

Also, for the fist source counts, the Mata Nui and Metru Nui page should reflect that. So shouldn't be: "Teridax learned how to access and control this system,", it should be that "Teridax learnt from Tren Krom [via Mutran] how to control the weather in the Matoran Universe". -- Surel—Nuva (Talk) 21:18, 5 February 2017 (CET)

Hmm alright, I guess we can leave the Kaita dissolution for now. I may want to follow up with Greg on that though (although he may not have an answer as that was before he was a big player in the story team).

As for the other point, really those sources aren't inconsistent with each other. Tren Krom knew how to control the weather and so forth because he was in charge of the MU before Mata Nui took over, so he knew how to operate the systems of the robot. If you want to add that Tren Krom taught Teridax how to operate various systems, that's fine, just be sure to cite as always. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 23:36, 5 February 2017 (CET)

i haven't at any of the edits yet to know what you guys are talking about, but why would makuta need to use TK's knowledge to control the weather? weather control is a makuta power. as for kaita: in the original book when that happened, it was simply stated that the kaita couldn't exist in his lair because he was a force of destruction - so i'm inclined to think that it's something innate that he could do as a makuta. Intelligence4 (talk) 17:25, 6 February 2017 (CET)

Before Mutran met Tren Krom, the Makuta didn't know (or just forgot) that they're living inside of a giant Robot. Tren Krom knew how to control the robot, and when Mutran met him, he "absorbed" the knowledge and shared with Teridax. And Tern Krom demonstrated his powers over the robot when he created large stone spikes which was very similar what Teridax did in the LoMN. -- Surel—Nuva (Talk) 12:10, 7 February 2017 (CET)

Right, but making spikes and stuff isn't controlling the weather - controlling the weather would be stuff like fog, rain,snow, etc. He didn't need to access any special robotic systems to control the weather, that's just a regular makuta power. Intelligence4 (talk) 07:15, 8 February 2017 (CET)

But creating an earthquake, what Teridax did in one of the '01 comics is not weather control. -- Surel—Nuva (Talk) 09:11, 8 February 2017 (CET)

An earthquake isn't considered weather though. Intelligence4 (talk), 11 February 2017 (CET)

Yes, and for Tren Krom controlled the MU he must have known how to create/generate such a thing as well as creating stone walls/spikes what he did in the Federation of Fear (which is very similar to what Teridax did in the LoMN). -- Surel—Nuva (Talk) 22:39, 11 February 2017 (CET)

Reviving this because I was thinking about how random this power is for Makuta to have, especially on top of the 42 Kraata powers. At first, I considered whether it may be an application of Telepathy, disrupting the Kaita's unity by distracting its focus. However, I'm starting to doubt whether this is canon at all. The only source for this ability is MNOG, where Makuta dissolved Akamai and Wairuha, but this contradicts BC1, where they dissolved of their own free will after defeating the Manas.[1] None of the other guidebooks seem to reference this ability (even the BEU doesn't list it under the list of his many powers), and the only Greg quote I could find is one from CwGF, but it's already assumed in the question. Dag (talk) 20:56, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Do we even know that it is something innate to Makuta, and not something accomplished with the systems of the Mangaia, or the Staff of Fusion in Teridax's possession? ~ Wolk (talk) 21:39, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I was going to mention that too. Gali's dialogue in MNOG is interesting. "The spirit of Makuta...the spirit of destruction. This is his inner realm. The Toa Kaita cannot exist here." The first sentence could suggest Makuta himself did it, but the second implies that it's something inherent to his lair. But of course this could also just be Gali guessing. Dag (talk) 21:49, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Loss of powers

I was wondering where the source for the information that they lose some of their abilities if they are in a body ill suited for that is from? I know it is a official fact but is it from Ask Greg or one of the books? Which one specifically? Also if the source is found what about other body changing abilities like elasticity and adaption? Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 08:57, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

I would assume an Ask Greg, although it's possible it gets hinted at in the story; 2007 would be the most likely culprit, what with Maxilos and everything. Feel free to add a citation needed tag to it though. -- Dorek _Talk 06:05, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Energy Absorption

We know that using some powers Makuta can absorb different types of energy. Darkness for light, hunger for life energy or strength, and silence for sound. But what about when Teridax absorbed energy from the power plant in Metru Nui and I assume it was electrical energy. Krika and Gorast needed to absorb heat and moral light but was it stated they gained those abilities? Gorast is said to have gained a stinger that could absorb light but did it say she gained that ability it is the same as saying a Makuta gained a extra arm and needed to absorb strength from other creatures, it is not a new ability it is their hunger power which they already possessed before their mutation. So what I am asking is are all three of these energy absorption powers such as heat absorption, moral light absorption, and electricity absorption abilities part of their hunger power or are they from other abilities like electricity, plasma, or darkness? Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 09:11, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Krika and Gorast were as a result of their mutations, so the need for energy in turn created the ability to absorb it. It wasn't related to any of their other "absorption" powers (Makuta generally don't have those as specified, or at least it shouldn't be thought of like you think of Toa's elemental powers), although Krika's was related to his own density control, for instance. -- Dorek _Talk 06:05, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

It is mentioned in Kraata of plasma stage 5 that they can melt something or absorb its energies and I believe that means thermal energy as in heat. And I am pretty sure the energy Teridax absorbed from the power plant is electrical energy. Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 08:35, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

I wouldn't put too much stock in the electrical energy; it wasn't so much "absorbing it" (again, not in the same way as we view elemental powers) but just taking it and using it to supercharge his transformation. As for the heat energy, I suppose that's an interesting connection, but as with most things, I'll say that's probably overthinking it; he needed to be able to absorb heat energy in order to stay solid, so he has the power in the story. -- Dorek _Talk 07:06, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

This is from legends of Metru Nui chapter 8 “ Makuta triggered the controls that caused Dume’s box to ascend. The energy pylons bent to his will, sending their lightning discharges into his body. He hungrily absorbed the raw energy into himself until it became too much for the frail form of a Turaga to bear”.

It literally says lightning and that he absorbed it. And apparently he did that to the storm as well.

Here is the link it is answer 3. https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page54#post2122

Now before any arguments could start this does not contradict any previous information already known. It also seems that Greg accepts this as canon which I believe it is good enough for this site to accept it as canon as well.

Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 07:50, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Kanohi Powers

It is shown that several Kanohi powers have are like Makutas’ powers. So are Makuta able to use their powers to accomplish the same tasks like the mask of hunger draining positive emotion can they do the same with their hunger power, or adapting in the same manner as a mask of adaption. We know some like the mask of illusion works differently than a Makuta’s illusion power but one thing that is consistent is no Kanohi’s power who shares the same power as the Makutas’ exceeds their abilities. Both the mask of illusion and the mask of silence among others have similar powers with them but the Makuta’s are better. And even the mask of shadows is said to grant Makuta level power not exceed it and that was a very special Kanohi. So can Makuta use their powers in the same manner as the Kanohi masks that share their names to achieve the same or better result? Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 09:25, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

I always thought that was sort of a reference to OG Teridax, where the masks they wear resemble powers they do have, but can been used in different ways, but that sort of goes out the window with the Mistika. Usually the Kraata power is slightly lesser by dint of the Rahkshi themselves having to use it, and they operate at a lower level. For the Avsa in particular, the draining light bit was to tie in with the overall plot point of the year; Rahkshi definitely cannot do that. -- Dorek _Talk 06:05, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

I was referring to a Makuta’s usage of their powers since they have more advance powers than even their strongest Rahkshi. For example a stage 6 kraata of teleportation can teleport itself through walls while a Makuta’s advance teleportation powers can work on others remotely and even on eye beams from the Shadow One. What I am wondering is can their accuracy be able to ricochet projectiles like the mask of accuracy or can they drain light and positive emotions like the Avsa. Can they match the specific examples of these Kanohi and others who share the same names as their powers? Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 08:42, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Until we see it in the story it's pretty moot, but I'm sure your accuracy example wouldn't be out of place in a hypothetical. Hunger definitely can't drain light though, that's unique to the mask because the concept was introduced as part of the story plot. -- Dorek _Talk 06:58, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Expanding Makuta Power Descriptions

There are quotes from Greg (quite a lot, actually), that give further explanation, clarification, and even corrections on how the different Makuta powers work, but currently, there is no clear way to add them. The only place where all 42 are listed is on the Kraata Variations page, but 1) it lists the different stages separately while most of the quotes talk about the powers in a general sense, and 2) I don't imagine we want to heavily edit those charts in order to preserve exactly how they were on bionicle.com. So, should the powers be listed individually on either the Makuta or Kraata page (although this may clutter the page), or should we create indivdual pages for the powers that have enough sources on them to warrant it? The problem with creating entirely new pages is that they would have to be approved, which could be a pretty slow process. Dag (talk) 03:27, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Personally I would lean towards creating new pages for anything that has enough sources. If you're willing to do the legwork I don't mind approving it! AfC is fine too though. -- Dorek _Talk 03:34, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Actually, just after making this topic, I may have thought of a way to incorporate it into the Kraata Variations page, which I quickly threw together on my Sandbox, using Fear as an example. All the original descriptions and individual images are kept, with any additional information being given at the top if necessary. Would changing the page to something like this work? Dag (talk) 03:54, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

So separate them out by power instead of stage? I suppose that could work; I like the way it looks, but I'd maybe want to know how many people reference the charts as is and if a change would be more or less useful. -- Dorek _Talk 04:10, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I've always thought the format Kraata Variations page could be better; every time I go to the page I go there to look up one specific power, not one specific stage. I think it'd be better (more intuitive/useful) to have all six descriptions of the same power in one places rather than six different places on the page. However, with reformatting, the basic description for the Kraata stages still need to go somewhere. ~ Wolk (talk) 04:12, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

The stage descriptions could just be removed from the variations page altogether since they're already listed on the main Kraata page. We could just add a note saying "For a general description of each stage, see the Kraata page," or something along those lines. Dag (talk) 04:18, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I think that's fine. If it turns out people preferred it in chart form, we can always create another page with it presented like that. -- Dorek _Talk 04:28, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I've actually had the Kraata stages page open on my browser for a few days now, mulling over ways it can be revised. I've seen that page a few times, and it never clicked until recently that the descriptions on each stage were different--I only thought the pictures were different for each. I would definitely recommend doing some sort of organization by type, rather than stage (and to also add Rahkshi coloring, for anyone seeking to identify that.

I do think chart formatting would still be worth keeping on the Kraata variations page, for a few reasons, but mainly because because a bulleted list will get quite long quite fast and it's easier to skim charts.

But yeah, also adding the list of powers somewhere on the Makuta page is also something I've been interested in seeing done for a while. Glad to see someone got to it before me. --Gonel (talk) 13:13, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

We should probably also turn the correction for the colors of Illusion and Ice Resistance listed in the Trivia for into a note instead. (Also, Kraata are hyphenated, 'Kraata-Za', rather than 'Kraata Za'.) ~ Wolk (talk) 00:09, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

That was my plan after getting all the powers formatted. And thanks for the heads up about the hyphen. Dag (talk) 00:24, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

I finished formatting the powers on my Sandbox page, so before I put it on the actual page, I want to see what others think. I didn't put all of the colors because I'm contemplating leaving them off entirely. The colors for both Kraata and Rahkshi are already given on the Rahkshi page, and I feel putting it on the variations page clutters things. I'd like to see the page's focus shift more towards the powers themselves, especially notes for how Makuta control them, since that's something not really explained in depth anywhere. Dag (talk) 03:56, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Personally I really like the visual aspect, so I think it would be a shame to lose that, but it looks good otherwise. -- Dorek _Talk 05:04, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

I think having the colors listed there is a good thing, best to have all the information in one place. However, this revamp would raise the question, would the page be better named 'Kraata Powers'? ~ Wolk (talk) 05:44, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

I'd prefer to keep the colors listed too, myself, just so I don't have to cross-reference different pages. I think it's looking great so far. And yeah, I think it would make sense to rename it "Kraata Powers." --Gonel (talk) 12:44, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Makuta Willpower

Should the fact that a Makuta has the willpower to use a elemental power against a toa of that element like electricity and not lose control of it due to having a stronger willpower be added somewhere?

Here is the link for what exactly I am talking about. https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2008-2010/page144#post5735

Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 22:46, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Non-Kraata Power Canidates

I have been thinking that the Makuta have a lot more powers than just their kraata powers so I decided to make a list of their non-kraata based powers incase any of these should be mentioned or added to this page. And to be thorough I will include non-kraata powers already listed so that a complete list can be created.

Telepathy

Shadows

Kraata creation

Infection(I am not sure if the antidermis infection should count as separate)

Self sustaining (No need to sleep, eat, drink or breathe)

Immunity to biological hazards (I am pretty sure Makuta are immune to poisons, diseases, aging, conventional pain, and possibly parasitic organisms)

Shapeshifting(I am talking about their mass changing and antidermis shapeshifting capabilities)

Shadow Hand(Since a Makuta can not use it in a robot body but can use their shadows powers just fine this may be warranted to be treated as a separate power)

High resistance to mental attacks(They have been shown to shrug these things off thanks to their willpower)

Immunity to having their powers stolen(Also it seems that Krahka and Vezok can not do it either)

Immunity to having their powers hijacked(Apparently a Makuta firing lightning at a toa of Lightning can prevent the toa from controlling it thanks to the Makuta’s willpower)

Kaita fusion

Kaita dissolution

Super strength(Their incredible strength has been mentioned a few times)

Extreme durability(Mostly due to their armor, but it is noticeable)

Use of Kanohi

They can shapeshift to get a rhotuka(Since this could lead to a new power I think I should add it to this list)

Possession of spiritless biomechanical beings or robots

Regeneration (In a container their antidermis can regenerate)

Flight in antidermis form(Teridax did move fast when he was a cloud)

Create shadow duplicates(Apparently all Makuta can manifest somebody’s darkness)

View through those who are infected(A Makuta can see through a infected victim’s eyes)

If somebody questions any of these I can try to find their sources when I have the time. I hope this could add something to this page.

Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 07:50, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Some of these, like the immunity, self-sustaining, physical strength, and durability are more just traits as opposed to powers. That said, there's a reason the section is called Abilities & *Traits*. Likewise, I think use of Kanohi tends to be more seen as a trait rather than a power. Shapeshifting is a can of worms. The side-effects of their antidermis nature I'd also call traits. Not sure what you mean by immunity to having their powers stolen - Didn't Conjurer steal the Makuta of Stelt's power and get overloaded? Shadow Hand is a shadow sub-power; Takanuva could do it but not absorb... The immunity to having their powers "hijacked" isn't an immunity but a game of willpower, one every being plays at. Nonetheless, while not all necessairly powers, yes, most of this can be integrated into the Abilites & Traits section. Honestly, those paragraphs may need a retool anyway. ~ Wolk (talk) 13:10, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

While I've also seen it, I know I'd take me ages to find it again so, do you have the quote on the shadow duplicates? ~ Wolk (talk) 13:11, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

The Makuta Of Stelt was unaffected by Conjurer’s power stealing Rhotuka. So it may have been the attempt that overloaded Conjurer rather than actually succeeding in stealing a Makuta’s powers.

And I will try to find that quote when I have the time for it.

Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 13:26, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Here is the link to the shadow duplicates.

https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2008-2010/page325#post12970

Also even though many of these could be considered traits the line between traits and powers can be hard to define. For example having a good immune system would be considered a trait but it would be listed as a power if it is to an incredible extent such as in Superman. Even in Bionicle that line is a bit blurry good marksmanship and high cold tolerance sound like traits but they are both the kraata powers of accuracy and cold resistance.

Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 00:23, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. I will try handle this when I have the time. (Unless of course, someone else feels like doing it before then! Then feel free :D ) ~ Wolk (talk) 00:59, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Shadow and Kraata Powers

While Makuta can only use one kraata power at a time they can use them at the same time as their shadow element. For example Teridax used his shadow hand as he was shapeshifting and he fired a blast of shadow towards Brutuka while he had Matoro trapped in a stasis field. So while they may be limited to one power at a time at least with their kraata powers this does not apply to their element of shadows showing they are even tougher in a fight than previously thought. I believe this information should be added to this page.

Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 00:28, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

I thought this was common knowledge.--Surel (Talk) 05:41, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Then why was it not mentioned in this page that they can use a kraata power as well as their shadow element at the same time?

Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 06:48, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Because like I told you earlier, it is need of a rewrite. ~ Wolk (talk) 10:47, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Date Of Makuta's Evolution

This quote is a bit of a mess, but I believe that I have found a source specifying that the evolution of the Makuta species into gaseous Antidermis took place 50,000 years ago:

https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2008-2010/page73#post2909-line37,43,52,57,67-68,77

I do not believe that this contradicts any known canon, but I figured I should check here before adding it.

The Jerminator (talk) 03:50, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Oh wow, it really is messy, I can't follow it fully. Anyhow, the quote is already used on the timeline, alongside this, which says 30-40: https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page306#post12224-line2-3 In combination, we have somewhere between 30,000 to 50,000 years ago. ~ Wolk (talk) 05:53, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Shapeshifting Contradiction

The new link said the Makuta gained the power to absorb others after their evolution but there is a contradiction. In The Mutran Chronicles when Teridax proposed the plan Miserix ask him if he planned to use his shadow hand, implying they already had that power before they evolved. Since it was refrenced towards Mata Nui it also implies it already worked against other beings. Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 20:21, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

See the recent discussion about Shapeshifting. Just because Makuta always had their Shadow Hand does not automatically mean they could always absorb with it. Dag (talk) 20:38, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Needing Kanohi?

I have two conflicting sources about whether Makuta need Kanohi to keep their Antidermis from leaking out: [1] [2]. - Toa Jala ^Converse 19:52, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Has there been any answer/discussion about why Makuta's face shined green when Takanuva ripped the Kraahkan off in Mask of Light? I know that was before the concept of antidermis and Makuta being gaseous was known, but that would be pretty consistent with antidermis leaking out. I just checked the novelization, but it wasn't any help. Dag (talk) 20:17, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

It would be great if we could get confirmation of that, if for no other reason than adding a picture to the Antidermis page. - Toa Jala ^Converse 04:44, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Apparently that is the case. Dag (talk) 04:59, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

The effects of expelling inner light.

Did the Makuta get some kind of power boost when they got rid of their inner light? Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 23:04, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Information about shunned inner light.

When did the Makuta do that and in which source was this from, and I mean besides Greg quotes. Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 00:47, 22 April 2023 (UTC)