Talk:Kanoka

Mask of Creation

Hey, can we say on the list of masks-to-make-disks list that the Mask of Creation was forged using magic (and maybe gold)?--Willess12 (talk) 05:01, 30 September 2014 (CEST)

Hah. -- I AM THE DOREK _{do not truffle with me} 05:18, 30 September 2014 (CEST)

Which disk number is magic, again? 3.14159? ζox• ^Histories

42, I'd wager. LockmanCapulet_{Crusty relics!} 13:59, 30 September 2014 (CEST)

Non-Protodermic Beings?

It seems as if many things from the MU have no effect on organic, non-protodermic creatures (e.g., Glatorian and Agori), such as viruses, Krana, and Hordika venom (the latter of which makes no sense to me). I'd imagine that Kanoka of all things, being made of purified Protodermis, would only affect organisms and objects made of Protodermis. Has Greg made any indication one way or the other? -- Great Jala ^{Cthulhu fhtagn} 10:02, 24 February 2016 (CET)

A lot of those things have to do with a being's physiology, so in a sense, you could probably make an argument that the mutagenic powers might not work as well (although I've never heard of viruses and Hordika venom not working on organic creatures, which might not even be accurate). But for Kanoka not to work it would basically mean that organic creatures are impervious to protodermis as a whole, which is definitely not the case. -- Dorek _Talk External Image

19:34, 24 February 2016 (CET)

Yeah, it says that under Hordika Venom#Functionality and Virus#Trivia. I was thinking that maybe Kanoka had some computer code or something to change another computer code (since the MU turned out to be like a giant computer in a sense). Your logic makes more sense to me, though. Thanks. -- Great Jala ^{Cthulhu fhtagn} 06:23, 25 February 2016 (CET)

Combined power levels

So how is the power level of combined kanoka calculated? Does it just take the level of the highest or lowest powered disc in the combo? Or do the values mix somehow to get a new value? --"♫We're driving old smokey! Porkchop's at the wheel! When we hit the junk realm, we'll make the drones squeal!♫" ^{~Prof. Srlojohn} 12:33, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

So, anyone have any ideas? --"I wanted show that humans are not gods, nor are we monsters, i wanted people to think about what it means to be human" -Lex ^{~Prof. Srlojohn} 12:10, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

My guess is that combined Kanoka are as strong as the lowest powered disk in the combo. I'm not sure if that's been confirmed though. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 14:34, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

that's what i was trying to see. If anyone knew. If no one knows, then we should ask Greg because it's a critical part of the mask making process. Because if it's lower than a certain power level it loses it's power right? so if your trying to make a great mask, why would you bother with combining discs that will never give the desired result? --"I wanted show that humans are not gods, nor are we monsters, i wanted people to think about what it means to be human" -Lex ^{~Prof. Srlojohn} 16:40, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

So, Anyone have any ideas? --"I wanted show that humans are not gods, nor are we monsters, i wanted people to think about what it means to be human" -Lex ^{~Prof. Srlojohn} 11:03, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

Masks that weren't made in Metru Nui

Regarding the following: https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page298#post11891-line2,7 & https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2008-2010/page72#post2877-line10-14,26 - "so most likely was not made from a disk" and "There may not be Kanoka combinations for those masks" do not sound like concrete statements to me, rather simply posing the possibility that there aren't disks. On the other end, I don't see what is not concrete in this statement: https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2013-2017/page489#post11267095 :/ ~ Wolk (talk) 20:57, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Yeah I agree, the first two quotes aren't definitive. I think that last quote can also go either way though.

That last quote is sort of like the statement "apples are not only blue." If I'm not mistaken there are two ways for that statement to be true: either some apples are blue and some aren't, or no apples are blue. In this case, it's true because no apples are blue.

In that last quote, Greg confirmed that Reconstitute at Random disks are not the only disk used to make a Mask of Mutation. Like that apple statement, I think there are two ways to read Greg's quote. Either a Reconstitute at Random disk is used along with some others, or no Reconstitute at Random disks are used at all. Of course this is really splitting hairs. :P But there's that voice in the back of my head telling me that reading the quote one way over the other is making an assumption, which is why I removed it from the page. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 22:58, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Greg did say more specifically that he's okay with the Mask of Mutation being made from Reconstitute disks: https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2008-2010/page330#post13165-line3,6 - The problem is that its not clear whether it's made from only Reconstitute disks or other disks as well. Dag (talk) 02:26, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Good find. Ordinarily yeah, if you combine that with Wolk's last quote, I think that'd be enough to establish the disks as Reconstitute at Random + Unknown. However, in this specific case I'm hesitant to do that because of this quote, which is dated two years after Wolk's last quote:

https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2013-2017/page855#post14226673-line6,10

Greg was hesitant to canonize the Mask of Mutation's component disks because he'd forget them, so I don't think his earlier (and, as seems likely based on context, forgotten) answers should take precedence in this case. That's getting into subjective territory though, so if you or others have thoughts please feel free to weigh in. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 03:14, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

I mean this latest quote doesn't invalidate the RaR disk for the Mask of Mutation. It says Greg doesn't want to canonize it to be Regenerate + Reconstitute. --maxim21 03:28, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

I personally see no reason to actually care about the component disks. Both of the Olmak were made by Artakha himself, who has the Mask of Creation, it's fair to assume that he made the masks with the legendary Kanohi, and even if he didn't, either this or the Kanohi page says that it is possible to forge masks without disks. If someone was actually asking about the component disks for Kanohi/Other Kanohi, which were shown to be worn by Metruans, I'd have nothing against at, as those were already established to be worn/used/have been on Metru Nui in my opinion. (Sorry, I don't want to sound rude or something, it's just early for me, like 5:40, but I'd like to respond to the topic)— Surel—Nuva _(Talk) 03:46, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

I think we could set them to Unknown, or hide the Component disk on most masks altogether given them not being made in Metru Nui. As for Fusion etc., that panel is from the end of 2007 and at that point in time the Toa Nuva would have sent the Matoran in Karzahni to Metru Nui, would they not? So do we know for certain they're not from Karzahni? ~ Wolk (talk) 10:30, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

You've got me here, they could have been rebuilt Matoran from Karzahni, maybe you're right and we could remove the "unknown" and other things from the main pages, where we weren't given the specific disk combination. Although if we don't have the disk options to none on certain pages, it would be ambigous for someone new, whether or not could a certain mask be made from a disk, or could a one in a kind mask be replicated, like the Avohkii or the Ignika.— Surel—Nuva _(Talk) 10:59, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

More about the Mask of Mutation. Greg has said a mask made of only RaR can't control how something is mutated https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page33#post1295-line7-8 https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2013-2017/page546#post11659863 but the Mask of Mutation can control it https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2008-2010/page257#post10262-line9,17,21,25 - So, if an RaR disk is needed for the Mask of Mutation, it would need more disks as well, which to me confirms that by "not solely, no", he meant it is made from an RaR disk, but not only that. I'm interested in disk combinations solely for the purposes of world building. If Greg really said that there are no combinations of the Mask of Mutation, that would be fine, but he's suggested otherwise multiple times (EDIT: he said it wasn't made from disks once, but since changed his answer as already noted above), which I think should be the canon answer, as opposed to no disks at all. Dag (talk) 14:48, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

As a corollary to the adage "everything before the word 'but' doesn't matter", I think Greg's initial "no" is the most evincing. The mask was never designed to have come from component Kanoka. Further updates also reflect this; all Brotherhood Kanohi are made out of Protosteel, to the best of my recollection, and Kanoka produce only regular Protodermis masks. That sort of renders the discussion moot; if you really wanted to argue the point, maybe A Mask of Mutation could be made out of RaR Kanoka, but THE Mask of Mutation was not, and since it's the only one, it's a trivia point that just exists out in the ether.

I'm willing to apply this to the Garai as well. -- Dorek _Talk External Image 19:26, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

I'd disagree, because Hewkii's Garai, for example isn't necessairly the only Garai and we know a Toa Disk of Gravity would make a Garai, even if his wasn't made that way. Same logic should be applied to any mask, just because the specific instance wasn't made that way doesn't mean it can't be, and Greg didn't say they can't be, he merely said we don't know if they can be. Which is why I'd vaguer to leave them as Unknown rather than None. ~ Wolk (talk) 20:07, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

@maxim: Yeah that's a legit way of reading that quote too.

@Wolk: Putting aside the Garai for a sec, I agree that we should stick with "Unknown" rather than "None" for the Mask of Mutation. Alternatively, we could just remove the "Component disks" section from the Mask of Mutation infobox entirely. (Same goes for other masks with unknown disks.) What are people's thoughts on that? -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 20:19, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

I still don't understand saying no disks are used for a Mask of Mutation because it wasn't made in Metru Nui and is made of Protosteel. Both points can be applied to the Jutlin, and yet it has a disk recipe. I agree that, just like Miserix's Mask of Mutation, Antroz's Jutlin most likely wasn't made from disks, but a Jutlin can be made using a Weaken disk according to Greg. Dag (talk) 02:07, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Twice Greg has said that masks not made in Metru Nui used other disk powers not found in Metru Nui.1 2 However, this conflicts with his quote that the only primary disks are the main eight plus the elementals.3 Since then, he has suggested numerous times that masks not made in Metru Nui don't use any disks, but, as Wolk mentioned, he uses vague language such as "likely" and "maybe", leaving the possibility open that they could be made with disks.4 5 6 7 8 While it may very well be true that other places do not make masks using the disk method (Greg has said Kanoka can be bypassed altogether and masks can be made straight from protodermis9), that doesn't mean those masks can't also be made with the disk method. We already know this to be true with the Kiril, Kualsi, Pehkui, Mask of Growth, and the aforementioned Jutlin. Dag (talk) 21:01, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Good point about the Jutlin. You're right that doesn't preclude other Masks of Mutation from being made of disks.

What the situation comes down to, at least in my opinion, is that Greg has given contradictory answers about the Mask of Mutation over the years, and his last say on the matter was that he's hesitant to give an exact answer. As pointed out above, you can piece together some Greg quotes to argue that the mask's recipe includes a Reconstitute at Random disk. You can even argue that doing so is technically compatible with Greg's last quote. However, having thought on it more, I do think it goes against the spirit of Greg's last quote.

In general, to maintain trust in the wiki's information, editors should strive to keep the wiki correct rather than complete. I'd rather we leave out info (sacrifice completeness) than present debatable info as fact (potentially sacrifice correctness). So, because that last Greg quote opens room for debate, I think we should leave the Mask of Mutation's disk recipe off of the Kanoka list. If we choose to leave that info off of the page, that doesn't mean it's wrong or non-canon, just that it's debatable. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 00:32, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

I can respect that decision. However, currently on the Mask of Mutation page, it has "none" under component disks, meaning its not made from disks at all. Would you be opposed to removing that section entirely like the rest of the masks that have unknown disk combinations? Dag (talk) 00:41, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Whoops, thought it had been removed already. :P Done now. Thanks for catching that! -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 00:44, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

The reason the quote(s) about the Reconstitute disk being included in the Mask of Mutation were removed was because they're debatable, which I understand, but what about the Kadin? Just as noted with the discussion above, Greg has said multiple times masks not made in Metru Nui might not use disks, but his answers have always included vague wording such as "likely" or "possibly", and there are several examples in canon already of masks not made in Metru Nui that do have disk combinations. When asked if the Kadin is made from a disk of flight, Greg said "yes" (https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2013-2017/page642#post12144196-line1-2). I know CwGF isn't top priority, but it's the only definite answer. Dag (talk) 21:46, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

This is carryover from a conversation started on the Jutlin talkpage. It was moved due to being more relevant here.

Initially, Greg said all masks are made from disks,1 2 3 including the Nuva4 but excluding the Avohkii and Kraakhan as he wasn’t certain about those two5 6 7 8 (he later said that another Avohkii could be made from a Toa disk of Light9 10). Then, starting in 2006, his answer changed to only Metru Nui Kanohi were made from disks.11 12 13 14 15 16 His previous answers could be read that way as well as the story thus far was only about Metru Nui,17 but the problem with this explanation is that there are some masks from outside of Metru Nui that are made from disks. These include the Garai and other elemental masks as well as the Kadin.18 This same reasoning was used when asked if the Mask of Mutation was made using Reconstitute at Random disks,19 20 but Greg later approved it.21 22 Greg also said that characters not native to Metru Nui, including Dume, probably did not have their masks made from Kanoka,23 even though Dume wears the Kiril, which is made from Regeneration disks. Another reason Greg gave for not coming up with Kanoka combinations for the newer masks was because they might have used disks not available in Metru Nui24 25 due to the purification processes required.26 Although the problem with this answer is that the only main Kanoka powers are the eight from Metru Nui and elemental disks,27 it indirectly suggests that those masks still used Kanoka, just not the same ones used in Metru Nui. Realistically, the reasons Greg didn’t come up with Kanoka combinations for the other masks is because he didn’t have the time,28 he didn’t need them for the story,29 30 and he was afraid of contradicting himself.31 While very understandable, these are not in-universe explanations for why masks not from Metru Nui didn’t use disks. After all, disks were used in other places like Stelt, so it’s not unreasonable to assume disks were forged into masks in those places.

From all this, I think every mask, including rare ones like the Olmak32 and maybe the other Legendaries,33 can be made from Kanoka, but do not have to be and can skip the disk stage altogether.34 This is how, for example, the Jutlin, even though the ones from the main story were made from Protosteel and probably not from disks,35 can alternatively be made from Weaken disks.36 Dag (talk) 18:58, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Equivalent Disk Combinations

Earlier today I added some extra info on Kanoka, all with citations. One point I added was that disks are transitive (if A+B=C, then A+B+D=C+D) because the order that disks are combined doesn't matter. The implications of this is that, for example, I can make a disk of Strength by first combining Regeneration and Enlarge and then combine the resultant disk with Removes Poison. However, a disk of Shielding is Regeneration and Enlarge, so it's just as viable to say a disk of Strength is Shielding and Removes Poison. In my edit, I noted this on the Kanohi Chart under Pakari, but it has been removed. Is there any reason why it's not acceptable? Dag (talk) 19:39, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps I haven't seen this specific trivia point, but my assumption is that once a mask is done, it's done; combining a Kanoka and a Kanohi is not something we see done. So while the combination you mentioned is technically accurate, it's not like a mathematical formula where you can move things to other sides of the equation just to check. Once you've made a mask, you've got a mask. -- Dorek _Talk External Image

19:53, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

I mean a disk of Shielding, not a mask of Shielding. I agree combining Kanoka and Kanohi hasn't been done, and probably can't be. However, combining a Regeneration disk with an Enlarge disk gives you a disk of Shielding, which you can then carve into a Hau. Or, alternatively, you can take that Shielding disk and combine that with a Removes Poison disk to get a Strength disk, and then turn that Strength disk into a Pakari. Dag (talk) 20:02, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

I think the reasoning is more-so redundancy. Yes, it is true that (Regeneration+Enlarge = Shielding) + RP = Strength, but I think that is explained enough in the Mask Making section, and in the chart it only becomes redundant. It's cleaner to have them all broken down as far as possible, as you can then derive, given these two stated points that Shielding+RP = Strength. ~ Wolk (talk) 20:03, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

I was under the impression it was removed due to being incorrect or not explicitly stated by Greg, but if it's just because of redundancy, that's fair, but I still think it should be clearly stated, either in the chart or the Mask Making section, just as an example of the implications of order being irrelevant. Dag (talk) 20:19, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Yeah putting it as an example in the Mask Making section sounds good. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 20:26, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

I guess now I'm wondering where the "disk of shielding" mention comes from; is the resulting disk actually a disk, or something that can only be made into Kanohi? -- Dorek _Talk External Image

01:44, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Here it is https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page40#post1587-line30-31 Dag (talk) 02:11, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Ah, okay, I'd say that seems germane to the chart section. Maybe change the wording to be resulting "power" rather than Kanohi? -- Dorek _Talk External Image

03:03, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Dag (talk) 03:14, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

I was the one who removed it from the chart, because even it's a 100% true, but as it was already mentioned above, it's nice for a trivia in the mask making paragraphs, but unnecessary for the actual chart, I was just too tired to actually make a summary.— Surel—Nuva _(Talk) 03:45, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Opposite Disk Powers

Greg has said that its possible that the disk powers (and even some mask powers) are opposites of each other.1 Weaken and Regeneration2 as well as Enlarge and Shrink3 are obvious enough, but the other four (Teleport, Freeze, RaR, Remove Poison) have not been specifically talked about. It seems obvious to me that Teleport and Freeze are opposites, and RaR and Remove Poison are opposites, though this is just speculation. I would like to somehow include the little information that is cited, but I'm unsure of the best way of doing it, so suggestions would be much appreciated. Dag (talk) 21:01, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

I think the info from the second and third quotes would be good to include on the relevant Kanohi pages. They could go as trivia points or even in the pages' top sections. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 00:32, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

When Kanoka were invented

Surel, I think you misread my edit, which was:

"The technology to develop Kanoka disks was invented more than 7,000 years ago in the Matoran Universe and more than 4,000 years ago in the Ko-Metru Knowledge Towers."

Kanoka are referenced in NOGLB and BL4, both take place more than 7,000 years ago and not on Metru Nui. We also know that more than 4,000 years ago (I didn't misunderstand the Greg quote), they were invented in Ko-Metru. What we don't know for certain is that Ko-Metru was the first place to invent them. They could have been made elsewhere in the MU before, and my edit tried to reflect that. Dag (talk) 06:44, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

The quote literally says: "All of them were made before -- Kanohi Dragon was only 4000 years before the current storyline, Metru Nui has existed for well over 90,000 years." Well over 90,000 years so the Kanoka disks could have been around for 80,000 years or so, there is no contradiction, if the quote says they were invented 7,000 years ago, and mass produced on other islands.--Surel (Talk) 13:16, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

However, we cannot derive them existing in Metru Nui 7,000+ years ago based on seeing them outside of Metru Nui at that time. As far as Metru Nui go, we only know them to have been around since 4,000+. As Greg has said: "The fact that Kanoka were invented in Ko-Metru 4000 years ago doesn't mean they couldn't have been developed somewhere else earlier than that." (https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2013-2017/page707#post12624319-line5,11) That doesn't mean NOGLB/Legacy of Evil predate the invention of Kanoka in Metru Nui - just that we don't know if they do. ~ Wolk (talk) 13:58, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Wolk here. We don't have to pin down where they were first invented in the universe, as it is possible they were invented in multiple places independently. The idea could have even been progammed in by the Great Beings for all we know as a way of making sustainable masks of power, self defense for MU inhabitants, or in hope they could form the Vahi. We don't know, and that is the point here. We can right that we know that Ko-Matoran in Ko-Metru discovered or invented the technology to make Kanoka over 4,000 years ago, and that Kanoka are known to have existed within the Matoran universe for at least 7,000 years (or 8,000 years, because that is supposedly when we first see Ancient's boots that use levatation kanoka. It is pretty clear that this is how it should be handled assuming no other info comes to light, but I will post this here to give people a chance to discuss first, or to give their arguments or contributions. Firespitter Lhii (talk) 04:49, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

8,000? What scene are you referring to? ~ Wolk (talk) 07:24, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

I though I read somewhere that NOGLB happened 4,000 prior to the (latest possible) time of invention of Kanoka-forging tech on Metru Nui, but I don't know if it was it was right, and I can't even find it anymore(I have found that NOGLB is at least 7,000 years before the time Takua summoned the Toa Mata, at least according to the timeline page, but I don't know what the at least 4,000 years ago figure of their development on Metru Nui is in reference to). It is really hard to tell with years numbers, as we have many benchmarks for where we reckon years relative to, and it isn't consistent in the slightest. We really should have a referendum or something on unifying the system of dating, because it is a mess. I don't really know where to do that though, unless we reopen the Voting Center. Firespitter Lhii (talk) 15:15, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

The Vahki, which used Kanoka disks on Metru Nui, were already on Metru Nui when the Kanohi Dragon attacked the city 4000 years before Takua summoned the Toa Mata. This was actually mentioned in that thread above, by me specifically. All of them were made before -- Kanohi Dragon was only 4000 years before the current storyline, Metru Nui has existed for well over 90,000 years. Greg specifically said that the Kanoka on Metru Nui were made before the Kanohi Dragon attacked 4k years prior, we just happened to know that Kanoka did exist at that time. At least 4,000 years ago could mean 40,000 years or 7,000 years too, it just had to be more than 4,000. The at least 4,000 years ago on Metru Nui is only relevant that it was the first time it was indirectly referenced by the presence of the Vahki on the island. The wording was weird, but it never meant that process of Kanoka making was invented 4,000 years ago.--SurelNuva (Talk) 15:44, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

I think this new, current wording is good now. I still stick by my suggestions for a standardized dating system, though, but I suppose that that discussion can be moved somewhere else. Firespitter Lhii (talk) 16:29, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

The current standardized system is just "years ago" from the end of the story. As for NOGLB, it is not "4,000 years before the time of Kanoka". NOGLB is set before Legacy of Evil chapter 1, which in turn is set 7,000 years ago. This same chapter also depicts Ancient with his levitation boots. The reason NOGLB is set before this is because of the very premise of the story -- Explaining the Toa in the stasis tube depicted in that chapter. The only real "upper cap" to that is of course (A) the Dark Hunters needed to have existed, which would limit it to 80,000 years ago, (B) Whenever Dume became Toa (at least 40,000? iirc), because Norik became a Toa after he did per Greg. ~ Wolk (talk) 16:33, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Or if the Kanoka were invented during Dume's rule, which I don't remember being stated anywhere, but would have been a good anchor point in Metru Nui's history, like the chute system were, it would cap up to 15,000 years ago, because that's when Dume became the Turaga of Metru Nui. It wouldn't effect NOGLB, since we don't know when Ancient aquired his boots, or when were boats first equipped with Kanoka launchers, or when Gatherer gathered his disk, which was mistaken for a rhotuka for the longest time. And again, that's pure speculation on my part since Dume was mentioned.--SurelNuva (Talk) 18:25, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Disk of Flight and Disk of Mind Scrambling

Shouldn't these disks be included as additional(not necessarily primary) disks? With the Disk of Mind Scrambling, it only really exists fully canonically as a result of the terms "kanoka" and "kanohi" accidentally being swapped, so I understand if it was treated differently if it was the only unexplained one. However, the Kadin is canonically able to be made by a "flight disk". Whether this means a Kanoka that works like those used in Akilini for riding on, a Kanoka with the power of flight(which is what it most likely was supposed to mean when confirmed), the product of the fusion of 2 or more other Metru-Nui Kanoka, or a primary or secondary disk that comes from somewhere else in the universe, I feel that leaving it completely unexplained makes things confusing and does not meet our editorial standards. Greg has said that there are only 8 primary kanoka powers(besides kanoka of Elements as a whole), and this might eliminate at least one of the aforementioned possibilities for what "flight disk(s)" are, it clearly exists as something. If a section is added for miscellaneous kanoka, we could also include the disk of time, rather than having it explained as a note. Firespitter Lhii (talk) 16:46, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

I think he likely meant it as being a disk fusion, as we know fused disks can create disks of levitation, shielding, etc. We should probably go into more detail about disk fusions on the page to make it more clear that disks of these powers are created through fusions. TuragaHordika (talk) 23:46, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes, they would be the result of disk combinations. There are only eight base powers aside from Toa disks. There's also no real ambiguity as to what a "flight disk" is. In context of the question cited, it's clear that it's a disk with the power of the Kadin, thus why it becomes a Kadin as a mask. They don't change power when forged into a mask. ~ Wolk (talk) 21:44, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Digits and Associated Powers

Do we know which digits are which powers? From what I can tell, page 30 of the guide Metru Nui: City of Legends has a chart, but that page was missing from the only online version I could find, and I can't find it mentioned anywhere else, so I don't know what the digits would be. One quote on our page, however, does say that Freeze is 2, but beyond that, nothing else is present. Firespitter Lhii (talk) 06:25, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

See Kanoka#Properties. The digits are in the order presented there, Reconstitution being one 1, Teleport being 8. ~ Wolk (talk) 06:35, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Expanding on Kanoka Power and Property Descriptions

Inspired by this recent video, I want to take another look at Kanoka, specifically to revisit the information on my user page and see if any of it is strong enough to be present on the actual wiki. First, the page already says that the height limitations for Shrink and Growth are true for any target, meaning that, for example, a target that is naturally 50 ft tall and hit with a level 8 Growth disk will still only grow to be 60 ft tall, as this is implied by the behavior of the Shrink disk that Sentrakh was hit with. The one assumption that I make is that Kanoka release their full power every time they are activated (that is to say that a level 8 Growth disk will always grow its target to 60 ft). Though I could not find direct confirmation of this one way or the other, I think this is a safe assumption, since the user throwing the disk has no real control over its power; it's either on or off. If that is true, this opens up interesting implications. We know that Sentrakh grew to 20 ft when hit with a Growth disk of unspecified power level, but we also know it must be of levels 1 through 7, since the limit for level 8 is already 60 ft. This means that the limit for a Noble Mask of Growth must be at least 20 feet, which implies that Noble Masks overall are at least 33% the level of Great Masks. This eliminates many of Greg's highly contradictive answers on this question, and the only remaining possibilities are 33% and 50%.

For 50%, there are two Greg quotes, one of which is his earliest answer of these.[1][2]

For 33%, there is only one Greg quote, which is his latest answer of these three [3]. However, Bonesiii for the Mask of Conjuring said the Noble has 33% the duration of the Great [4]. While Greg did say he left questions about the EM masks up to Bonesiii, that certainly doesn't mean he outweighs Greg, especially when it has wider implications in canon.

From this, I think 50% has enough behind it to be present on the wiki. To be clear on what this means and what I am suggesting be presented, only that 1) Noble Masks, level 7 disks, and Turaga are 50% the power level of Great Masks, level 8 disks, and Toa, respectively, and 2) one of the lower level Growth disks, 1 through 6, must have a limit of 20 feet. The other assumption that I make on my user page is that the 20 ft Growth disk is level 6, which, while most likely, just isn't confirmed. But again, this all hinges on whether Kanoka release their full power every time they are activated. Dag (talk) 22:33, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

"The one assumption that I make is that Kanoka release their full power every time they are activated... Though I could not find direct confirmation of this one way or the other, I think this is a safe assumption, since the user throwing the disk has no real control over its power; it's either on or off."

The one thing that makes me iffy on this is that we do have two examples of the user having some control of the disk. The Disk of Translation, according to Greg, makes the inscription clear to the user specifically, suggesting it knows who launched it/threw it. And any disk made in Ga-Metru can be mentally controlled to change direction by the person who threw it/launched(?) it. As for why Vakama would stop the disk at 20 ft, IF the growth disk can be controlled by the person shooting it, then perhaps Vakama made the disk stop at 20 feet so Sentrakh wouldn't do more damage to the Great Temple. It's not concrete, but it is something to consider.--Willess12 (talk) 05:37, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

The problem with that quote about Translation and X-Ray is that it's too loosely defined to be evidence of anything. For Translation, Greg just said it becomes "clear to you." Does that mean only the user who threw the disk? Would others around be able to see it translated? For X-Ray, Greg says the object hit with the disk becomes see-through, but how would that be functionally different from an Invisibility disk? That quote, even if it should be canon, is just too vague to be used to argue for anything. I'm sure you can come up with ways to make them consistent, but that would be speculation.

Good point about the Ga-Metru disk, though can we reasonably say the user can generally control the power of the disk off the basis of only the Ga-Metru disk flight path being controlled by the user?

Since my first post, I found this quote:

"On the new sortof update to bionicle.com (the links actually dissapeared for me after I had finished reading. That was spooky...) it says that Tehutti carries a teleportation disk because it helps with moving exibits to and fro amongst the archives. (That's only a very rough paraphrase.) But I thought teleportation disks couldn't let the user control where the target ends up? How could that help him?"

"They can't. You can't control exactly where things end up. However, as shown in Trial By Fire, if you know the power level of your disk, you can make a rough guess exactly how far it will make someone go, even if not in which direction. So it is certainly not the best way to move things around :) -- but it is better than trying to carry them:"

And the scene Greg is referencing:

"'Nice,' said Vakama. 'But here's an easier way.' He took out a teleportation disk, checked its three-digit code to make sure it was low power, and then hurled it from his launcher. It struck Nuhrii a glancing blow and the Ta-Matoran disappeared. An instant later, he popped back into existence right in front of the two Toa."

Applying your suggestion for Growth to its analogue in Teleportation, Vakama should have been able to use a higher level disk, but control its power so that the distance wasn't that far (the direction would still be random of course), but that's not what happens. Vakama had to check that it was a low power disk, and Greg confirms that the distance of a Teleport disk directly corresponds to its power level (which is also supported by the wording of the magazine). Simply put, Teleport has a fixed distance based on power level, but random direction. Other powers also have confirmed fixed intensities based on power level: RaR, Regeneration, and Weaken. Though I still don't have a source saying Kanoka generally behave this way, I think we can safely extend this behavior to the other disks as well. The wording of the magazine for Growth says "maximum size depends on the power level of the disk." The use of "maximum" could suggest that a Growth disk would grow a target to be any height below that maximum, but Shrink is more concrete in its wording, saying "level of shrinkage depends on the power of level of the disk." Dag (talk) 15:43, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

I think perhaps my comment may not have been as coherent as I would have liked, since I made it at midnight.

A good point about translation, I hadn't actually considered that it might be clear to anyone else who tries to read it.

As for Ga-Metru disks, my point was that since they can be controlled by the thrower, it's possible that other things can be controlled as well. That said, we know that most other disks seem to just do stuff: Teleportation and RaR are definitely uncontrolled. I am curious where you're getting that Weaken and Regenerate have fixed intensity -- not that I doubt you, I'm just not aware of where that's from.

Basically, while it's probably safe to assume that all disks always go off at full power, the existence of the Ga-Metru disk shows that it is possible there could be exceptions. Not probable, but possible. I would say that it is something someone could headcanon. But given that we have two/four cases of the user having no control over what the disk does, and given that Translation is not a confirmed exception like I initially thought, I think applying that same logic to Growth/Shrink is a pretty safe bet.--Willess12 (talk) 19:17, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

For RaR, Greg says the scope of the change increases with power level, but the user still can't control how exactly the target mutates [1]. That's the intensity of RaR, the scope of mutation, just like how the intensity of a Teleport disk is its distance, but the user still can't control what direction the target teleports to. For Weaken, it's not as strong, but Greg implicitly confirms it here. And I think the magazine's wording for Shrink is about as good as a confirmation we're going to get for it. We still don't really have confirmation for Growth, but since it's the opposite of Shrink, makes sense that it would work similarly. I think that, plus the Greg quotes saying 50%, are sufficient to make this change. If no one has any other objections, I'll probably start working on this in the next few days.

(EDIT: I just realized I misread your post. You asked about Regen, not RaR. For Regen, this quote says the extent of the damage repaired is tied to power level. Again, as with Shrink and Growth, since Weaken is the apparent opposite of Regen, makes sense that the extent of damage done is tied to power level. I also want to emphasize that, if these were just maximums for the disk, but it could also be any random intensity below that maximum, then these descriptions wouldn't be all that meaningful, as disks would be very unpreditable, which contradicts Greg's quote about Teleport and being able to predict it. These differences in power level are worded as if that's what the disk will do, not what it may do.) Dag (talk) 19:37, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

I believe Greg used numbers to convey a rough sense of the great/noble power difference, not to precisely quantify it, which is why he tended to fuzz numbers with phrases like "about half the intensity" or "more like a 3." In my opinion, we can't fairly infer noble masks' exact power levels from the listed quotes.

Even if we do conclude that each noble mask has exactly half the power of its great counterpart, we cannot fairly infer what this means for a given noble mask's effects. We'd have to make additional assumptions about how each mask's power relates to its effect, but often there isn't a single "best set of assumptions" to make. For example, consider the noble Hau. We might know that it has half the power of the great Hau, and that this power drop manifests as some strength drop and some duration drop. Here are three (imo reasonable) effect drops consistent with that information:

assume that power is proportional to (strength * duration); the noble Hau is half as powerful as the great Hau because the noble Hau's shield is 1/sqrt(2) as strong and lasts 1/sqrt(2) as long
assume that power is proportional to (strength * duration); the noble Hau is half as powerful as the great Hau because the noble Hau's shield is ever so slightly weaker and lasts ever so slightly more than half as long
assume that power is proportional to (strength + duration); the noble Hau is half as powerful as the great Hau because the noble Hau's shield is half as strong and lasts half as long

With different assumptions, we can reach many conclusions about the noble Hau's effects. For this reason I believe we shouldn't infer specific noble masks' effects from general statements about noble masks' power levels. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 07:23, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

"I believe Greg used numbers to convey a rough sense of the great/noble power difference, not to precisely quantify it, which is why he tended to fuzz numbers with phrases like 'about half the intensity' or 'more like a 3.' In my opinion, we can't fairly infer noble masks' exact power levels from the listed quotes."

One of the quotes does not use that estimative language ("Great Masks are set at 10; Noble Masks are set at 5."). The one that does is about Noble Elemental Masks being "about half the intensity of a Toa." If you want to argue that exact power levels can't be known from quotes like that, then you have to argue the same for Great Elemental Masks offering Toa-level control, since two of the quotes say they're "about" Toa-level [1][2]. However, one just says "yes," they are Toa-level. Either we discard this one quote in favor of the two, which wouldn't make sense since there's no actual contradiction, or we recognize that Greg, for whatever reason, used loose language but meant that it is exactly Toa-level. I've noticed this is something Greg does fairly often.

"Here are three (imo reasonable) effect drops consistent with that information"

Could you explain how any of these are reasonable? I'm genuinely curious, because I don't see how. If you mean "power" in the literal scientific sense, which is work over time, then it should be inversely proportional to time, but here you have all three being directly proportional to it. I think this stems from confusion based on how I (and how I believe Greg) use "power," which is understandable since there's two seemingly paradoxical definitions. One is that power refers to the actual strength or intensity of the mask/disk. The other refers to the overall power level, which would include length of duration. To steelman your argument, you could say that just because the strength/intensity is halved going from level 8 to level 7 does not necessarily mean the duration is halved as well. Greg's quote about Noble Elemental Masks, where he says the intensity is halved, but only that they are "less able to maintain" (doesn't also say that duration is halved), could support that conclusion. However, I still don't think that works because of this next point:

"For this reason I believe we shouldn't infer specific noble masks' effects from general statements about noble masks' power levels."

If the generalization can't be applied to specifics, then where can it be applied so that it remains a generalization? For example, Greg has confirmed that for the Kaukau and Huna, the only thing that changes from Great to Noble is their duration since the strength of their powers can't really be turned down (you either breathe underwater or you don't; you're either invisible or you're not). So, if their power is halved, their duration must be halved. You again could say that this is only true for those masks specifically and not for other masks, but that would mean that masks vary in their duration decrease going from Great to Noble, which is inconsistent. Dag (talk) 15:45, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I disagree that the quote you listed does not use estimative language--I interpret the volume control analogy as a way to build rough intuition for power levels, not a precise statement about them. If Greg meant "exactly half," I imagine he would have said that explicitly without an analogy. Even if this quote was meant precisely, I don't think we can fairly combine it with Greg's second quote "about half the intensity" from four years later to conclude that he meant exactly 50% all along, and that his other answers are wrong.

As for Toa disks, I don't interpret "Toa-level control" as a precise term either, so I don't believe answers of "that's right" and "that's about right" are concretely different. If the quotes say that, then wherever the wiki says that Toa disks offer "Toa-level" control of a power, my guess is we can safely say "about Toa-level" without any change in meaning.

As you pointed out, I used "power" and "power level" in the "mask strength/intensity" sense, not "energy per time" or "disk power level." I believe that is how Greg meant those terms in his great/noble power level quotes. Those bullet points from my last comment are simple quantitative relationships where more mask strength/intensity leads to a stronger shield that lasts longer.

I do think a general statement about all noble masks' precise strengths/intensities can be applied to each specific noble mask's precise strength/intensity. I am concerned about applying a generic statement about all noble masks' precise strengths/intensities to each specific noble mask's precise *effect*--which requires the logical step from the last sentence, plus an additional set of assumptions to move from strength/intensity to effect.

Even for binary on/off masks like the Huna, translating from strength/intensity to effect takes some assumptions. Once we assume a precise relationship between the Huna's strength/intensity and its duration, then if we know precisely how the great and noble Huna's strengths/intensities differ, we can infer precisely how their durations differ. It's true that if the power is halved, the duration is also halved, if we make a certain set of assumptions.

For example, we might assume that the Huna acts like a simple battery, where its strength/intensity is its energy capacity, and where energy use per time is some constant independent of the whether the mask is great/noble, how long the mask has been on, the user's size, etc. Under these assumptions, we might conclude that the Huna's strength/intensity is directly proportional to its effect duration. In that case, since the noble Huna has half the strength/intensity as the great version, it lasts half as long. But under a different set of assumptions, we can reach a different relationship. Maybe the Huna heats up with use in some way that makes it less efficient the longer it has been on, in which case a noble mask with half the strength/intensity of the great version might last for more than half as long as the great version. One could argue that assuming a nonlinear strength-duration relationship is excessive--clearly a Huna half as strong lasts half as long--but similarly one could argue that the nonlinear assumption makes more sense than a linear one since it more accurately matches real-world systems.

Either way, to translate a quantitative statement about a noble mask's strength/intensity to a quantitative statement about one particular noble mask's effect, we need to assume a quantitative strength-effect relationship for that particular mask. I am not (yet) aware of official material that provides those quantitative relationships, which is why I believe we should leave that information off of the pages. If we take the 50% figure as correct, all we can say for sure without that additional strength-effect relationship is something like, "The noble Huna, which has half the strength of the great version, does not allow the user to stay concealed for as long," but we can only speculate as to how long. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 18:39, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

"I disagree that the quote you listed does not use estimative language--I interpret the volume control analogy as a way to build rough intuition for power levels, not a precise statement about them."

I was specifically responding to your examples of Greg saying "about" or "more like," which Greg does not use in that quote. Great masks are 10, Nobles are 5. If you want to interpret his use of an analogy as also meaning a rough estimation (not a necessary one, but possible I suppose), that's fine, but that is different from what you initially claimed.

"I don't interpret 'Toa-level control' as a precise term either, so I don't believe answers of 'that's right' and 'that's about right' are concretely different."

I'm still not sure what you would do with the one quote that Greg simply says "yes" to them having Toa-level control, with no imprecise or estimative wording. I don't know how you could conclude that Greg, in that quote, meant for it to be loose.

"I do think a general statement about all noble masks' precise strengths/intensities can be applied to each specific noble mask's precise strength/intensity. I am concerned about applying a generic statement about all noble masks' precise strengths/intensities to each specific noble mask's precise *effect*--which requires the logical step from the last sentence, plus an additional set of assumptions to move from strength/intensity to effect."

I don't understand what you mean by this. How are you differentiating strength/intensity from effect? I assume that you mean the effect is what the mask does, while strength/intensity is how strong or potent that effect is. But if that were the case, then duration is distinct from effect, yet you have a problem with extending the generalization of strength/intensity to duration, so I'm again lost in how you are defining these terms.

"Even for binary on/off masks like the Huna, translating from strength/intensity to effect takes some assumptions."

And this statement here only adds to my confusion. In my edit to the Huna page, I only said the duration is halved. The effect, of course, stays the same. Both the Great and Noble make the user invisible. So again, what do you mean by "effect"?

For your various points about assumptions, I would point to the Felnas page, in which Wolk edited it to say that it requires physical contact only the basis that Gorast touched her enemies every single time. I don't see how the few assumptions that I make here are any more extreme than that. Dag (talk) 19:28, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I was specifically responding to your examples of Greg saying "about" or "more like," which Greg does not use in that quote. Great masks are 10, Nobles are 5. If you want to interpret his use of an analogy as also meaning a rough estimation (not a necessary one, but possible I suppose), that's fine, but that is different from what you initially claimed.

I initially claimed that Greg provided numbers as rough estimates. I gave examples of fuzzy numbers from two quotes as evidence of that claim. You said that the third quote doesn't use fuzzy numbers (as you correctly identified, I misunderstood the term "estimative language," so I thought you meant the third quote's numbers were precise). Then I explained how I still interpret the third quote's numbers as imprecise (where I mistakenly used "estimative language" differently than you did, as a more general term than "fuzzy numbers"). Overall, I interpret the third quote as more evidence of my initial claim. Anyway, it seems like we do understand each other at this point.

I'm still not sure what you would do with the one quote that Greg simply says "yes" to them having Toa-level control, with no imprecise or estimative wording. I don't know how you could conclude that Greg, in that quote, meant for it to be loose.

I understand Toa-level control as an imprecise concept, similar to "enough strength to move a mountain." Even though that quote doesn't use additional language to fuzz "power over an element as though they were a Toa of that element," I think Greg was confirming a rough estimate, and so if he said "more or less," I would interpret that quote the same way.

I don't understand what you mean by this. How are you differentiating strength/intensity from effect? I assume that you mean the effect is what the mask does, while strength/intensity is how strong or potent that effect is. But if that were the case, then duration is distinct from effect, yet you have a problem with extending the generalization of strength/intensity to duration, so I'm again lost in how you are defining these terms.

What I've meant to convey is that the vaguely defined mask "strength/intensity" in Greg's quotes and the quantitative, observable "effect" of the mask (how long a Huna lasts, how small a Pehkui lets you shrink, etc.) are related in some way, but we don't know how. I think my examples clouded my point. The Huna's "strength/intensity" might simply be "how long you can use it," and we can imagine some assumptions that lead us to that relationship, but we can imagine other assumptions that produce a different relationship. For masks like the Hau, where the noble version's effect might be reduced in multiple ways (the shield might be weaker, the shield might not last as long), it's even less clear how cutting its strength/intensity in half would affect its shielding ability as opposed to its duration.

I'm afraid I don't understand how the Felnas change relates to this discussion. Could you elaborate? -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 21:08, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't have the time to catch up on all of this for the time being; but regarding the Felnas, it's not so much that Gorast simply never used it as range, but that she is depicted needing to go out of her way to be in physical contact, iirc. ~ Wolk (talk) 21:44, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

"I understand 'Toa-level control' as an imprecise term, similar to 'enough strength to move a mountain,' so even though that quote doesn't use additional language to fuzz the term 'Toa-level control,' I think it is imprecise and means the same thing as "about Toa-level control.'"

I don't see how it's imprecise. Ill-defined, certainly, since Toa are capable of a wide range of powers, but I think from these quotes we can say that these masks offer the user Toa-level control over their elements, whatever "Toa-level control" means.

"The Huna's 'strength/intensity' might simply be 'how long you can use it,' and we can imagine some assumptions that lead us to that relationship, but we can imagine other assumptions that produce a different relationship."

Okay, I think I see the problem. I don't understand why you say that the Huna's strength/intensity being only its duration is an assumption. In that case specifically, it's confirmed to be the only difference by the BEU ("had the same effects but a shorter duration"). If the generalization of Noble masks having half the strength of Great masks is true, then applying it here to the Huna is not an assumption, that's the only logical conclusion that naturally follows.

"For masks like the Hau, where the noble version's effect might be reduced in multiple ways (the shield might be weaker, the shield might not last as long), it's even less clear how cutting its strength/intensity in half would affect its shielding ability as opposed to its duration."

Well, if we take the quote about Noble Elemental masks being half the intensity of Toa at face value, it confirms that it's the intensity that gets halved, not overall power which would include duration. That was my point in trying to steelman your argument. Sure, duration may not decrease by half as well, but again, that would mean that different masks would have different amounts of duration decrease (Huna and Kaukau would be half, but Hau and others could potentially be less than half), which I think is inconsistent, and not supported enough to allow for such an inconsistency. I don't deny that I'm assuming the duration is also halved for all masks, but I think it's one that we can safely make, especially since the alternative would be more complicated than it needs to be.

"I'm afraid I don't understand how the Felnas change relates to this discussion. Could you elaborate?"

Sure. What I meant was, if your point is ultimately that we should be careful with such assumptions and presenting them as actual fact on the wiki (exactness vs completeness), then I think you would have to also contest Wolk's edit of the Felnas page. We have no sources explicitly stating that the Felnas requires physical contact, yet it is presented as fact on the page only because Gorast touched her enemies every time she activated it. It would be an assumption to extend those instances to say that it is a general limitation of the mask. Other explanations are technically possible (what if it was a specific limitation for Gorast due to her mutation?). To be clear, I think it's a safe assumption to make, but from your arguments here, I would think you have to be against that on the same grounds. If you're not against it, then you can't be against the changes here. Dag (talk) 22:11, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't see how it's imprecise. Ill-defined, certainly, since Toa are capable of a wide range of powers, but I think from these quotes we can say that these masks offer the user Toa-level control over their elements, whatever "Toa-level control" means.

I agree: we can safely say elemental masks and Toa disks offer Toa-level control over their elements, although we each interpret that sentence a little differently. If I understood correctly, you brought up Toa disks to show that a quote with a rough estimate, plus a quote with a precise number, are enough to establish the precise number. I believe Toa-level control is an imprecise concept, so Greg's quotes about Toa disks never gave a precise number. You believe Toa-level control is precise, so Greg's firm "yes" quote did give a precise number. Either way, until we establish that Greg gave a precise number in the great vs. noble quotes, I'm not sure we can apply reasoning about precise numbers from this Toa disk situation.

Okay, I think I see the problem. I don't understand why you say that the Huna's strength/intensity being only its duration is an assumption. In that case specifically, it's confirmed to be the only difference by the BEU ("had the same effects but a shorter duration"). If the generalization of Noble masks having half the strength of Great masks is true, then applying it here to the Huna is not an assumption, that's the only logical conclusion that naturally follows.

To be explicit, I have been counting a mask's duration as part of its "effect," which is different than how that BEU quote uses the term "effect." As I've used the word, a mask that runs equally well for half as long has half the effect.

Anyway, it's pretty reasonable to read "the noble Huna has half the strength" as "the noble Huna has half the duration," since the most obvious way to weaken the Huna is to shorten its duration. If instead we take "the noble Huna has half the strength" to mean "the noble Huna can output up to half the energy per use," then the duration of the noble Huna's effect might not be half (for all we know, the mask's energy output per time is not constant if the mask, say, heats up with use). For me, that energy example sows doubt about the noble Huna, but I can see how it seems contrived. Other noble masks like the Pehkui seem, to me, less obvious--no official material suggests that if a noble version has half the strength/intensity, then the noble version's min height must be exactly twice the great version's. (For example, maybe the only difference is duration.) Not dismissing the possibility--just, in my opinion, it's too big a jump for the wiki.

Sure, duration may not decrease by half as well, but again, that would mean that different masks would have different amounts of duration decrease (Huna and Kaukau would be half, but Hau and others could potentially be less than half), which I think is inconsistent, and not supported enough to allow for such an inconsistency. I don't deny that I'm assuming the duration is also halved for all masks, but I think it's one that we can safely make, especially since the alternative would be more complicated than it needs to be.

I agree that no material supports the claim that the ratio (noble mask duration)/(great mask duration) differs between masks. Afaik no material supports that the claim that it's constant, either, which is why I believe we shouldn't include that information on the wiki. Personally, I don't find one option simpler or more consistent than the other.

Also thanks for filling me in on the Felnas stuff. I hadn't followed that. I think a note on the Felnas page is a totally fair way to handle that. Subjectively, I find the Felnas assumption more compelling than the great/noble ones, since all the evidence for the Felnas assumption is published material, while the noble Kanohi's limits lean heavily on Greg quotes with uncertain wording, and in some cases, specifics are not rooted in Greg quotes (for example, the noble Pehkui's 12 inch limit). Either way, that's a good point about Gorast's mutations, and I think adding a note on the Felnas page would be totally reasonable.

I think the next step is to establish that Greg meant exactly 50% in [1] or [2]. As we discussed earlier, I don't think those quotes on their own support that conclusion, and [3] casts more doubt, so more quotes would be useful here. Until we establish an exact relationship between noble and great masks, we cannot establish precise limits on mask durations, shield effectiveness, etc. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 06:11, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree we should focus on the Elemental mask quotes for now. There's a few things we need to first establish: 1) Great Elemental masks offer Toa-level control over their element 2) Noble Elemental masks offer Turaga level-control over their element 3) The difference between Great and Noble Elemental masks is half 4) Elemental masks are on the same scales as regular masks. This will help identify where exactly we disagree and why.

1) Great Elemental masks offer Toa-level control over their element

I think there is still some confusion on what's being argued on this point because you say here:

"I agree: we can safely say elemental masks and Toa disks offer Toa-level control over their elements"

We agree, but here you say:

"I believe Toa-level control is an imprecise concept, so Greg's quotes about Toa disks never gave a precise number. You believe Toa-level control is precise, so Greg's firm 'yes' quote did give a precise number."

So we don't actually agree that we can safely say Great Elemental masks offer Toa-level control? I wasn't saying that quote gave a precise number, as if the answer was quantitative, but simply that it was exact and qualitative. Again, we don't need to know exactly what "Toa-level control" is or what it means to be able to say a Great Elemental mask offers that to it's user. The reason I'm really hammering this out is because it makes my point on 3) clearer.

2) Noble Elemental masks offer Turaga level-control over their element

If we agree Great Elemental masks offering Toa-level control, then surely we would also agree that Noble Elemental masks offer Turaga-level control.

3) The difference between Great and Noble Elemental masks is half

Now the meat and potatoes. I purposefully worded this one vaguely because, again, what exactly "half" means needs to also be discussed. But first, about whether that quote is exact to begin with:

My argument was, if your contention about the quote saying Nobles are half was its use of loose language such as "about" or "more like," I pointed to the fact that two of the quotes saying Great Elemental masks offer Toa-level control also say "about," but one just says "yes." There are no precise numbers there, and that wasn't my point. My point was, two of the quotes are vague, while one is not. Either we can side against the one quote that is exact in favor of the two more vague ones, and change the Elemental masks description to be "about Toa-level," or we use the one exact quote to say they are exactly Toa-level, since it does not conflict with the two vague quotes. If we side with the one exact quote, that means that we're willing to reinterpret Greg's two vague quotes as meaning they are exactly Toa-level, despite his use of "about." My point was only that if that's what we're going with, then we have to be consistent and say that Greg's quotes about Nobles being "about" half of Greats are exact as well.

Like I briefly mentioned before, I've noticed that this isn't the only time Greg has used vague language to refer to an exact correlation, as shown by other quotes stating precisely that. All Toa are "roughly" or "basically" the same power level [1][2]. All Toa are the same power level [3][4][5]. I know I've come across more examples of this before, but I don't remember them exactly and don't have time right now to go looking for them. I agree that it's weird he would choose this imprecise wording to refer to something precise, but it appears he just does.

Now, given that's it's exact, the quote says:

"To what extent would the power of a noble mask of fire's control over fire be?"

"Figure about half the intensity of a Toa of Fire's power and less able to maintain"

First of all, it says its half of Toa, not Great Elemental masks. It being half of the Greats is interpolated based on our conclusion from 1). Second, it says the "intensity" is halved, then goes on to answer about it being "less able to maintain" (which I assume means less duration, but if you have a different interpretation of this, let me know). You didn't really respond to this point when I first brought it up, rather focusing on duration, but I think it's important we nail down what exactly intensity means. I think it's clear that it does not include duration, since Greg answered it separately. On your point about the Huna, your use of "effect" includes duration, but you admit that the BEU's use of it does not. I don't see this conversation going much of anywhere if we continue to use the same words in different ways. We're effectively speaking different languages. So really, the whole crux of this argument comes down to the question: what is "intensity"? If it refers to the actual power/effect/strength of the mask, then we should be able to say with certainty that, for example, the Noble Mask of Growth's max height is half that of the Great.

4) Elemental masks are on the same scales as regular masks.

Another point that shouldn't be in contention. If we come to the conclusion that 3) is true, then it can and should be applied generally to all masks. But again, it all depends on 3), and more specifically, what "intensity" means. Dag (talk) 16:05, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Totally agree on points 2 (Noble Elemental masks offer Turaga level-control over their element) and 4 (Elemental masks are on the same scales as regular masks).

I've focused too much on minutia and missed the argument's big picture. Here is how I understand your reasoning. If I am misrepresenting it, please correct me. By the way, your argument is pretty creative and clever, so big props. I realize I'm being difficult, but it's not because I dislike your argument, I am just concerned it's a stretch for the wiki.

Special:Permalink/183029#Power Quantitation lists five quotes comparing Toa and Turaga, plus another comparing great and noble elemental masks. Really, that makes six quotes comparing great and noble elemental masks, from which we extrapolate to great/noble masks in general.

Before the next step, we have six quotes as evidence, but only two are consistent with each other. Those two quotes came four years apart, and Greg provided contradictory quotes both in between them and after the second: he didn't use the 50% number twice because that was his true vision all along, nor did he use other numbers because he forgot about or retconned his 50% answers. The numbers are spread around a decent amount, and they span two orders of magnitude (1/2 vs. 1/500). Also, in my opinion, none of those six quotes provide precise numbers. (I recognize you read "Great Masks are set at 10; Noble Masks are set at 5" as precise--but we have agreed that my read is at least possible). To me, all this context strongly signals that Greg didn't want us to take any numbers too literally. This signal is something I should have talked about earlier.

We seem to agree that if we stop there, there isn't enough evidence to say anything quantitative about noble masks vs. great masks. To learn more, we must either add or remove quotes.

With clever reasoning, you remove three quotes, so two of the three left are consistent with 50%. With fewer contradictory quotes, you more easily claim that the 50% number was Greg's true intent. Importantly, by removing three quotes, we also remove much of the context suggesting Greg didn't mean his numbers literally, which I am concerned about. For that reason, I believe this argument needs to add quotes, not remove them.

Point 1 (Great Elemental masks offer Toa-level control over their element):

Next you remove the 33% quote, leaving only 50%. You cited Toa disks to show that given a "yes" answer and a "more or less yes" answer, the wiki has sided with the "yes" answer. I've pushed the discussion off track by getting stuck on "Toa-level control." What actually matters: I'm cool with saying that "yes" + "more or less yes" = "yes," and that they can outweigh a "no." But, I'm not convinced that the TV volume analogy is a "yes" for 50% (I believe we have two "more or less yes" quotes for 50%, with no "yes").

Point 3 (The difference between Great and Noble Elemental masks is half):

We don't know what strength/intensity/etc. means, but apparently it varies from mask to mask. Elemental masks apparently have a (roughly?) 50% cut to "magnitude of elemental powers" and, maybe, some sort of duration cut (apparently independent of that 50%?). The only difference between the great and noble Huna is duration, so if we assume that 50% cut applies to all noble masks, that cut must shorten the duration somehow. (Yet the elemental masks' duration cut isn't part of their 50%?) In the end, we're working with so little ambiguous evidence that we can only speculate about how that 50% cut translates into anything concrete. We just need more firm quotes.

Overall I'm worried that to reach the 50% number, we have to ignore some key context, and we have to interpret two "more or less yes" quotes as a "yes" (without an quote containing an explicit "yes"). Then applying that 50% number to specific masks requires us to interpret some pretty ambiguous info. I don't believe reasoning with the existing evidence can get us answers. Instead we need more evidence for the 50% number, and more evidence for how that number applies to each mask. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 23:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

"I've focused too much on minutia and missed the argument's big picture. Here is how I understand your reasoning. If I am misrepresenting it, please correct me. By the way, your argument is pretty creative and clever, so big props. I realize I'm being difficult, but it's not because I dislike your argument, I am just concerned it's a stretch for the wiki."

All good, and thanks lol. I admit that my first few posts here sort of glossed over some details, and my user page is outdated, so it's good to go back over the details.

"Special:Permalink/183029#Power Quantitation lists five quotes comparing Toa and Turaga, plus another comparing great and noble elemental masks. Really, that makes six quotes comparing great and noble elemental masks, from which we extrapolate to great/noble masks in general."

And those five quotes (four, actually, the 50% one is just the Noble Elemental mask quote) specifically are an example of what needs clarification. Those four quotes give conflicting answers on the difference in elemental power between Toa and Turaga. They are only relevant to the Elemental Mask difference if points 1 and 2 are both true, since that is what is required to say they're the same difference. If you still have contentions about point 1 being true, then you can't bring these quotes as evidence against the 50% for masks specifically. I think you do agree though with point 1, but I just wanted to make that clear.

As for why I disregard these quotes, there's a few ways you can look at it. One is that we can look at what is more consistent. When asked about the difference between Toa and Turaga, Greg has given highly varying answers. When he was asked about the difference between masks, he has said Noble are half of Greats. I understand the debate about those two quotes specifically is not over yet, and that's why I've limited the discussion to those two and masks specifically, as to not muddy the waters.

The other way you can look at it is what I brought up initially, though admittedly it has some caveats. Sentrakh was hit with a Growth disk and grew to 20 feet. He was then hit with a Shrink disk and shrunk to 6 inches [1], which is the minimum for the Great Pehkui. If that 6 inches was meant to be for Toa specifically (in other words, shrink height scales with the target's initial height), then that contradicts how it worked on Sentrakh. On my user page, I argue from Sentrakh normal set height, but I've realized that is entirely unnecessary. He was hit with the Growth disk first. So, a Shrink disk shrunk a 20 ft target to 6 inches, the same it would have for a Toa at 7.2 ft. This means that the resulting height from a Shrink disk is fixed for any target (for example, a 10 inch target hit by a level 8 Shrink disk would still only shrink to 6 inches). Even if it were possible that this instance with Sentrakh doesn't count because it wasn't his natural height, Sentrakh being naturally taller than Toa, based on his set, is still sufficient to demonstrate this. Now, I assume that 1) Growth has this same limitation as Shrink, that it's resulting heights are also fixed for any target, and 2) Kanoka disks release their full potential every time they hit. The second point was the focus of my response to Willess, and at this point, I'm not even sure it would count as an assumption. It seems pretty well established that Kanoka seem to release their full power every time they hit a target. And point 1, with Growth being the antithesis to Shrink, seems safe as well.

If those two points are true, then we can conclude that one of the Growth disks below level 8 has a max height of 20 ft, which is a third of level 8's height. It's this conclusion that I use to say that level 7 must be at least 33%, which, if true, would effectively eliminate the possibility of those four other quotes, which are below this threshold. But, from our argument here, the question is whether I can extrapolate from the reduction in height to be a reduction in overall power for the mask. That's why I wanted focus on the intensity quote and what it means. Dag (talk) 00:26, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

I just realized something that might throw a wrench into this whole matter.

"One moment, [Sentrakh] was functioning normally, the next he was 20 feet high and slamming his head into the rafters. A second later, a second disk hit and he was reduced in size to six inches."

Now, why did I highlight that part? Well, let's go back to the description of the disk powers from the guidebook:

"Enlarges: Causes target to grow. Rate of growth is tied to the power level of the disk"

So where am I going with this? What if Sentrakh hit 20ft, not because that was the limit of the disk he got hit with, but because he got hit with another disk before he stopped growing?

I went back and checked every scene I could think of, but there's no indication of how fast the enlarge/shrink disks take to change size. The only thing I could find is this:

"The disk flew on a straight course to the spot directly between the spot between the beast's eyes, and then... the Rahi Nui was gone." -Maze of Shadows

This is the Rahi Nui, using the power of the Disk of Shrinking, and it seems the shrinking is instantaneous. However, while the Rahi Nui may have the powers of the disks, they work differently for the beast:

"Onewa turned to see that the damage to the beast's leg was healing before his eyes"

We know that disks of regeneration cannot repair organic material. Greg's exact words were even "it's a repair disk, not a healing disk", and in the following paragraph, Onewa compares it to "healing" a building with a regenerate disk. So at the very least, the Rahi Nui is not bound by that limitation. It may also not be bound to the 6 inches limit, based on the fast that it is able to shrink enough that the Toa cannot see it; I would assume they would see a 6 inch Rahi Nui, especially since it regrew right in their midst.

Basically, my point is: perhaps 20ft is not the limit of the Disk Sentrakh got struck with, but Vakama just managed to hit him with another disk before he finished growing. It's a possibility, something to consider at least.--Willess12 (talk) 05:57, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

"What if Sentrakh hit 20ft, not because that was the limit of the disk he got hit with, but because he got hit with another disk before he stopped growing?"

You assume that rate is with respect to time, which is not necessary. Rate just refers to "a measure, quantity, or frequency, typically one measured against some other quantity or measure." It's possible that "rate of growth" simply refers to the final height with respect to power level. Greg uses the same phrase for Shrink when asked about how small it can make something [1]. The magazine more clearly states that it's the max/min height of Growth/Shrink that changes with power level (also, it says "rapidly" for both, whatever that means). Also, if it's worth anything, Comic 19 and Comic 25 use a very similar visual for Shrink that Comic 25 does for Roodaka's mutation Rhotuka, which is confirmed to be instantaneous. You point to Sentrakh and the narration's use of "a second later," but the same line implies that the Shrink was pretty much instant.

"However, while the Rahi Nui may have the powers of the disks, they work differently for the beast"

Very much so. Growth worked differently [2], and the Freeze power manifested as a vision power. Dag (talk) 17:12, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Willess, that is an interesting find. I agree, to me "rate of growth" reads like a rate with respect to time, so I looked around and found this quote https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page20#post784-line13-14. Then I realized Dag already mentioned it. :P

Dag, I think I understand your point about the two definitions of "intensity" now. This quote made it click for me, where Greg explicitly says the disk's power level is measuring something different from "how much of an effect it has on its target": https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page60#post2379-line10-14 So which is halved: the power level or the effect? Per that quote, since the power level doesn't measure the effect, in general halving one won't exactly halve the other. I'd assumed the power level was halved when moving from great to noble, so we couldn't infer that the effect was exactly halved. I don't think the effect can be halved when moving from great to noble--if so, then moving from great to noble would *not* exactly halve the power level in all cases, suggesting we could find two distinct noble Kanohi whose corresponding power-level-7 Kanoka... have different power levels, which seems wrong.

Before I respond, since your focus has only been on these six or so quotes giving quantifiable numbers, I want to be clear and ask if you have any objections to the rest of these points staying on their respective pages:

Elemental Great Masks offer the user Toa-level control over their element, and Elemental Nobles masks Turaga-level control.
The Growth and Shrink disk sizes are fixed for any target (i.e. Growth level 8 is 60 ft for any target, and Shrink level 8 is six inches for any target, regardless of starting size).
One of the Growth disks below level 8, though we don't know which one, must have a size of 20 ft.

Now, my response:

"This quote made it click for me, where Greg explicitly says the disk's power level is measuring something different from "how much of an effect it has on its target": https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page60#post2379-line10-14 So which is halved: the power level or the effect? Per that quote, since the power level doesn't measure the effect, in general halving one won't exactly halve the other."

You've lost me here. By saying "the power level doesn't measure the effect," are you suggesting that the effect doesn't change when power level does, as if, say, a level 1 Teleport disk can teleport its target just as far as a level 8 disk can? That is demonstrably false, proven by numerous quotes from Greg and published sources, so I don't think that's what you're saying. If I am to guess, I think you're saying that the difference in power level is not necessarily the same as the difference in the effect. But then what do you mean by "power level"?

That quote also is only talking about the disk's durability (how many times it can be used before completely running out of power). The question is asking (though in a somewhat roundabout way) if using the disk gradually decreases its effect, basically reducing its power level until it becomes completely powerless. Greg is saying that it does not gradually weaken from its use. It has a fixed power level until it runs out of energy, then it just turns off ("like my light bulb in the lamp by the bed, one second it's 100 watts, next second it's dark").

"As mentioned before, with the context of these six quotes..."

I would like to again point that your argument has shifted from what it initially was. At first, you focused on the vague and estimative wording, but I've pointed out that Greg often uses such loose language while still referring to an exact answer, as I demonstrated with Toa all being the same power level (and my intuition was correct, I've since remembered more examples [1][2][3]). If you concede on that point, that's fine, I just wanted to be clear.

"I find it pretty clear Greg didn't mean any of these numbers too literally."

At least for the sake of argument, I'm willing to agree with you that the highly contradictive nature of Greg's quotes on the difference in power between Toa and Turaga is a sign that he didn't mean for them to be taken literally. In fact, I think that helps my position, since I'm saying that those quotes can't be literally true. What I still have a problem with, however, is applying that conclusion outside of that immediate context. Sure, because of the Elemental Great/Noble masks correlating to Toa/Turaga, they are relevant, but they're still answering a different question. Greg probably didn't realize that the scales for Toa/Turaga and Great/Noble masks would have to be the same, especially if some of those quotes were from before he discussed the Elemental masks.

"Perhaps he changed his mind later--after all, we know the Pehkui's minimum height. Even if that's true, certainly we shouldn't use info from before this quote to quantify Kanoka powers, which eliminates this 50% quote (https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page2#post41-line2-3), leaving only one "fuzzy" quote for 50% (https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page222#post8856-line10,16)"

If we can agree that it comes down to that one Noble Elemental mask quote, then the only "fuzzy" things about it are 1) Greg's use of "about" (which again doesn't matter since he's used that same wording in other places, which the wiki takes to be an exact answer) and 2) what Greg means specifically by "intensity." Dag (talk) 15:55, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Yep I agree on the first three bullet points.

If I am to guess, I think you're saying that the difference in power level is not necessarily the same as the difference in the effect. But then what do you mean by "power level"?

Yeah that is what I meant. Ngl this idea only made sense to me when I was pretty tired, and it requires an unfairly close read, so I'll drop it and spare us both from my incoherent rambling. :P In the end, I don't believe we have enough quotes to know what exactly a "50% intensity cut" means for certain masks, but my word games about "power levels," "intensities," "effects," etc. weren't getting us anywhere.

I would like to again point that your argument has shifted from what it initially was. At first, you focused on the vague and estimative wording, but I've pointed out that Greg often uses such loose language while still referring to an exact answer, as I demonstrated with Toa all being the same power level (and my intuition was correct, I've since remembered more examples [1][2][3]). If you concede on that point, that's fine, I just wanted to be clear.

Ah okay I misunderstood before. In the examples with Toa disks, relative Toa power levels, number of Makuta, etc., Greg gave vague *and* firm yesses at different times. I thought you meant that since 50% had one "vague yes" and one "firm yes," those two together made a "firm yes" strong enough to override the "vague yes" for 33%. I laser-focused on "Great Masks are set at 10; Noble Masks are set at 5" because I thought your argument specifically required a firm yes to pick 50% over 33%, but I thought there was no firm yes.

Yes, now I agree your reasoning does not require a firm yes from Greg. Whether Greg confirmed "around 50%" vs. "exactly 50%" shouldn't matter--if the rest of your argument holds up, but all the yesses are vague, we can include the exact same info on the wiki, just prefaced with "about" to be careful. (For Toa disks etc., I am less concerned about including "about" on the wiki because Greg provided firm yesses in addition to the vague ones.) Something *does* still concern me about the vague yesses: the fuzzy language is part of an overall context that suggests Greg might not have wanted to quantify Toa vs. Turaga power levels. But I agree, by themselves, the vague yesses don't derail your reasoning.

Also, you're totally right my argument has subtly changed, as you've made some interesting points and I've gotten more context. I haven't been explicit about that, in part because I hadn't stopped to think through those changes until now. I'll take a bit of time to outline them. If nothing else, hopefully the outline will let people dismiss my concerns without having to wade through my half-baked thoughts, like you've had to do already. :P -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 06:12, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

All good, and I probably could've been more clear on some of my points as well. I'll revert my edits to the individual Kanohi pages back to just saying "less," remove explicit statements about Growth and Shrink Noble heights, and change the Kanoka and Turaga pages to saying "about half." Dag (talk) 17:15, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Sounds good. If I'm totally off base, easy to undo later!

The argument has two steps:

Relate noble masks to great masks
Determine concrete details about each noble mask

(1) Relate noble masks to great masks

Cleverly, the argument reframes this step as "relate noble elemental masks to great elemental masks," then again as "relate Turaga's powers to Toa's powers," which opens up more evidence.

I see two ways to argue that noble masks are (around?) 1/2 as powerful as great masks. Also, we can blend the two ways. Here is each way and potential concerns (which might be non-issues):

1: Use the two quotes saying 1/2 to outweigh the quote saying 1/3. This approach treats the second 1/2 quote, which was rephrased in terms of elemental Kanohi, no differently from the five Toa/Turaga quotes. We start with six quotes, then remove three that contradict Time Trap. Of the three left, two support 1/2 and one supports 1/3.
- In each quote, Greg uses fuzzy language (analogies or terms such as "about"). On its own, that language isn't meaningful; on plenty of other occasions, Greg has used fuzzy language even with a firm number in mind. But, the fact Greg used fuzzy language in all six quotes, while providing five notably different numbers (from 1/500 to 1/2), and while generally being hesitant to quantify characters' relative powers (e.g., Toa vs. Toa Nuva: https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page102#post4063-line64,75), might suggest that Greg never meant to firmly quantify Toa vs. Turaga powers. If Greg meant none of the numbers seriously, it might not be fair to prioritize some over others--even if some numbers match published material better, or some numbers appeared in more quotes than others, they might still be off-the-cuff each time.
2: Place the 1/2 quote from 2007, which is about elemental masks, in a totally separate category from the Toa/Turaga quotes. Accept that the Toa/Turaga quotes are inconsistent. But, since this elemental mask quote really answers the same question, we can prioritize its number (1/2) over the inconsistent Toa/Turaga quotes.
- Since Greg didn't give consistent answers in the Toa/Turaga quotes, we can't necessarily take Greg's answer to a slightly rephrased question more literally.
- If Greg meant the elemental mask quote to definitively quantify Toa vs. Turaga powers, then after giving the elemental mask quote, he would have repeated this number (1/2) in future quotes about Toa vs. Turaga powers. After the elemental mask quote, Greg gave one more Toa/Turaga quote, which was the 1/3 quote.

(2) Determine concrete details about each noble mask

To turn information about masks in general into information about specific masks, we must make assumptions that might or might not be justified.

If we accept that in general, each noble mask's "intensity," "power," etc. is around half of the great version's, we do not know what that means for some masks. Is it a halving/doubling of obvious traits, such as the Pehkui's minimum size? How does the decrease work when there are multiple obvious ways to weaken the mask, such as the Hau's shield strength and duration? What is the "intensity" of masks that are either on or off, such as the Huna? This information was not explicitly confirmed. Some (difficult) people might see the answers as more speculative, while others might see them as common sense.

I've monopolized this discussion long enough! Curious to hear others' perspectives. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 03:25, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

I'll fully admit to not having understood all of this debate, but I guess my general position is that it's REALLY difficult to ascribe quantitative measurement to qualitative description. So the math for the Mask of Growth technically checks out, because size is a much more objective measurement (pun intended). But, for instance, with the Komau, where the Noble version is said to be able to control Krana but not Toa; these are two biologically distinct organisms and operate their artificial intelligence in completely different ways; if we were to say a Noble Komau is 50% the power level of the great, that works fine for say, duration, which is how a lot of these Noble/Greats are compared, but what's the inference then about the relationship of the Krana compared to Toa? We can't just say one has 50% conscience, or sapience, or whatever, because that doesn't mean anything. -- Dorek _Talk 03:13, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

You're absolutely right, and that's why I didn't extend the half power quotes to those types of masks. However, I still do think those quotes are generally true for all masks and that those types of masks are qualitatively halved. For example, the Noble Rau can only translate text, while the Great Rau can translate text and speech (although, I wonder what the lower level Kanoka would do, like, what would a level 3 translation disk do?). For the Komau, I agree that we can't conclude that Krana are somehow 50% conscience/sapient from this, but the Noble probably is still 50% the power of the Great in some way. Dag (talk) 15:28, 18 June 2024 (UTC)