Talk:Jutlin
Kanoka
Currently the Jutlin is cited as being made from Weaken disks (https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2013-2017/page521#post11484839-line2,7), but an earlier quote from OGDi says the opposite (https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2008-2010/page329#post13155-line4,14). Dag (talk) 16:20, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Go with the earlier one!
- We had a similar discussion about the Mask of Mutation too. Since there was only one Jutlin and that was made out of Protosteel, it feels like one of those trivia points that just exists out in the ether and doesn't really have any basis in canon. -- Dorek Talk
04:52, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- I figured that would be the case, but I wanted to ask before doing so because:
- 1. It's been there for several years and has been accepted by the community as canon for a while (this applies to the Mask of Mutation reference too).
- 2. The Jutlin's powers are near identical to the Weaken Kanoka (the reason why it was suggested in the first place), so it's not a huge leap to say it's made from it.
- I personally find trivia bits like this great, as it opens worldbuilding, especially for fan fictions, and as long as it doesn't conflict with canon, especially the main story, there's no harm in it. I went ahead and removed it anyway. Dag (talk) 05:30, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
Admittedly that's part of the larger problem I have with so many Greg quotes; realistically the person who asked was just fishing for this response FOR a fanfiction (or headcanon or whatever) when really it has zero bearing on the story. I know that's how some things get embedded in the community consciousness, but it's that sort of irrelevance that means I don't really have a problem removing it. Think whatever you like! Use your imagination! A one-off sentence on this site shouldn't matter one way or the other.
But also in this specific case the person asking wasn't taking any further details into consideration (aforementioned facts of there only being one that was made out of protosteel), whereas Greg's initial answer at least had a bit of depth to it. -- Dorek Talk 20:47, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
- Actually, there were 3 Jutlins in the story. One for Antroz, one for Spiriah, and one Noble for Radiak. That's why I had no problem with having a kanoka for this mask. But as for the Olmak (2 has appeared and both were confirmed to be made by Artakha himself) or the Mask of Mutation (only one appearing, being worn by Miserix) it is another case.--Surel-Nuva (Talk) 21:36, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
- I don't think that's fair to the user who asked Greg the second time. For one, they said "as suggested by a member on BZP," so its possible someone on the forums noticed similarities between the Weaken disk and the Jutlin, and enough people thought it was a good enough idea to ask Greg about, so it wouldn't be one person "just fishing for this response."
- Second, there are indeed similarities, enough that would make this question logical without an ulterior motive like fanfiction. The Jutlin weakens1 non living (MGttU p 65), and arguably living things too,23 just like the Weaken disk. There are some differences that could suggest the Jutlin isn't made from only Weaken disks, but you can't blame them for noticing the strong resemblance. While the only known Jutlins in story (except maybe Radiak's noble?) were made of Protosteel, any mask can be melted down and turned into a disk,4 and the idea that only masks made in Metru Nui are forged from disks doesn't work because the Elemental masks are made from Toa disks, and the Kadin is made from a disk of flight. The question isn't whether the Jutlin can be made from disks at all as you seem to imply, but which disk(s) are used. Maybe its not Weaken, but again, you can't blame the user who asked Greg for noticing the similarities.
- As I said, I love details like this as it opens the worldbuilding, even with the main story cancelled, but our opinions on fanfictions are irrelevant. What matters is if this information can fit into canon. The rule about earlier answers only applies to "forgetcons," not intended retcons, but from these two answers, can you honestly tell which this is? Most likely Greg just forgot, but without explicit confirmation, it could be intentional. This is a problem I have with BS01's standard for treating Greg's answers that I go into more detail on here. Dag (talk) 22:19, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
Re: three Jutlins, fair on the Spiriah one, but same issues still. The "Noble" Jutlin though, is exactly the kind of thing I was referring to; it's an idea that doesn't make make any sense at all (even on the surface!) and has no real bearing in the canon, but because it got an "okay", it's there. And yeah, the blame is more on the culture of the haphazard Q&A's and canonization that developed, but that's still no reason not to think critically. Given the Phantoka Makuta mask powers were clearly modeled after some of the OG Rahkshi powers, in this specific case, it's somewhat bizarre that Greg went with yes the second time (one of the benefits of the precedence rule, which I'll respond to at some point haha).
But at the end of the day, I'd argue that making the leap from "Kanohi can be melted down into Kanoka" to "the Makuta masks came from disks", in addition to being circular, is the opposite of worldbuilding, it's an unnecessarily shackling of two unrelated things for the sake of... headcanon, I guess. -- Dorek Talk 06:59, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
- I don't think there's any main story reason for Radiak's mask being a Noble Jutlin to not make sense, but I could be wrong, and I don't understand when you say it "has no real bearing in the canon." Do you mean published materials and the main story? Greg's acceptence of it (granted it doesn't contradict anything, which again, I don't think Radiak's Jutlin does) is enough to say it is canon, but I digress.
- My point about "every Kanohi can be melted down into a disk," if true, was that the logical conclusion was that even the Makuta masks, despite being made from Protosteel, should also be able to be turned into Kanoka, even if the masks were not initially made from disks. So again, the question is what power that disk would have. Weaken? Something else? Also, the Phantoka masks do indeed seem to be based on Rahkshi powers, with Silence/Shelek and Hunger/Avsa being one to one comparisons, but I'm not seeing a Rahkshi power that neatly corresponds to the Jutlin. And even then, some Rahkshi powers can be made from disks, such as the secondary elements, Illusion, and Teleportation (not saying Rahkshi get their powers from disks, but that powers often have different sources that they come from). Dag (talk) 16:31, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
Either Fragmentation or Disintegration, depending on how you define them (they were unnecessarily similar to 11 year old me!) but yeah.
I guess my main issue is that these "theories" often rely on made-up or stretched evidence; specifically for the Noble Jutlin, there's no reason a Noble template would exist. You'd have to have a shadow Toa who was turned into a Turaga and specifically given a Jutlin beforehand to even know about it, and then this Matoran would have to have been given a powerless Kanohi deliberately reshaped this particular way for... reasons. It's peak Occam's razor. -- Dorek Talk 18:16, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
- IIRC at first Gavla's, Radiak's, and Kirop's masks were meant to be the matoran variants of the Avsa, Jutlin, and Shelek, but it was rejected, and the noble one was accepted. At least I've read that somewhere, I don't quite have enough time to dig through the OGD topics at the moment.--Surel-Nuva (Talk) 18:22, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
- The only problem is that this assumes the masks can't be made from disks. If they can, then a Noble would just be made from Level 7 disks, and no major leaps in logic are really needed. Dag (talk) 19:19, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
- Sure, but the logic becomes circular; a mask CAN be made from a disk so a disk CAN be made from a mask, ignoring the fact that A. not every mask is made from disks, and B. the Jutlins we are aware of very specifically were not made from disks, so there's no reason for a Jutlin-disk to exist. It's just this chain of logic that isn't supported by anything other than "well, why not?".
- The Ignika becoming a disk bit is actually kind of interesting, but I also feel like it might not be accurate? Something for another time. -- Dorek Talk 03:29, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
Standard
Here it is implied that Antroz shapshifted his mask into the regular/normal form, when he stole the Jetrax, as he wasn't aware how his Jutlin would look like. Can we consider this as a confirmation for that?--Surel-Nuva (Talk) 13:12, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
- I see how you can read the quote that way, but it's not an explicit enough yes for use on the page in my opinion. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 21:39, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
Radiak's Noble Jutlin
I'm not really sure where best to put this, but since the discussion started here (see Kanoka topic), it may as well stay here. I looked into the Noble Jutlin situation, which also applies to the other Av-Matoran masks, and initially Greg consistently shot down the idea that they were Noble versions of the Toa/Makuta.123456 This was until Bonesiii, as part of the Expanded Multiverse, asked about it, which Greg accepted.7 Since then, he's said yes to it8910 (except for one time he forgot 11). This isn't the only time the EM has retconned previous answers before (see Elda and Mask of Aging talkpages). However, in this particular case, I think the retcon is justified. Seeing as the Matoran were attached (figuratively and sometimes literally) to their Toa/Makuta counterparts, and their masks have striking similarities, it seems fine. Dag (talk) 19:15, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
- I've got plenty of problems with the EM lol, but I can't exactly fault it for not being thought out (I can fault it for being the opposite!). But yeah, I think the entire point was to supersede some previous answers anyway, so while I find that pretty gross, it's an acknowledged fact.