Why don't we just quote greg in full with his explanation for this page? not saying delete what we already have, but given that greg's little blurb is basically all we have on the earth tribe, shouldn't we have that on here? Intelligence4 (talk) 17:16, 11 January 2017 (CET)
- For the Element Lord of Earth is a girl, but he used male pronouns by reflex, and he posted and confirmed a lot more things about that Tribe before it was removed from that wiki. And it was removed for originally the Earth Tribe was the placeholder name of the Iron Tribe. But Greg now confirmed the whole story of them, so they were re-added to the wiki along with the older info. -- Surel-Nuva (Talk) 17:31, 11 January 2017 (CET)
- Wasn't it deleted because it contradicted some things? The placeholder thing had nothing to do with it, right?
- --OnionShark 17:36, 11 January 2017 (CET)
- No, the placeholder thing was the first reason for deleting the original Earth Tribe page. The contradictions were the seconds, and the Journey's End still use that only 6 ELs got powers and 6 Tribes were mentioned. Someone said that the Journey's End has a hint to the Earth Tribe, but I cannot find even a word, which could be a hint for that Tribe at all... Also, the EL of Jungle said in the RotGB that he and his five brothers were transformed into Elemental Beings, but there are only 5 male ELs and 2 female ones, so... -- Surel-Nuva (Talk) 17:41, 11 January 2017 (CET)
i think we should still quote what greg said, even if there's a minor error in it. it's still the most direct and comprehensive source of information we have on the subject. Intelligence4 (talk) 18:06, 11 January 2017 (CET)
- I don't understand if you mean to make a quote of the post, or to copy&paste it on the History section. The first option would be weird, as we usually only quote one tiny excerpt, and it would be kinda useless because quotes are for things that make a place or character unique, but I'm not too opposed to the idea (maybe we could take a little excerpt from the post?), and the second one wouldn't work because Greg's language is not really wiki-like, and trust me, when I first made the sandbox for the page, I tried to keep the text as similar to the post as possible.
- --OnionShark 18:37, 11 January 2017 (CET)
- Maybe the last bit? "[...] After the disaster, accepted wisdom became that the Earth EL and Agori were responsible for what had happened and so no one wanted anything to do with them anymore. They were effectively banished from society."
- --OnionShark 18:44, 11 January 2017 (CET)
- The different sections of each page rely on different quotes, so I don't see how copying Greg wholesale is any better than writing our own article. Plus it's unprofessional. -- talk) 01:13, 12 January 2017 (CET) (
- onion, i meant that we should make a quote of the post - or at least make a note of it in a trivia section or something. morris, i don't think it's unprofessional to recognise that "quoted paragraph here" is the only piece of information we have on a subject. (in fact, imo, it'd be unprofessional to make it appear that we know more than we do about a particular subject.) Intelligence4 (talk) 01:52, 19 January 2017 (CET)
- But it's not the only piece of information on the ET, look at all the references. And Greg's post is one of them, so I don't see what would be the point of quoting it.
- --OnionShark 11:40, 19 January 2017 (CET)
- onion, i meant that we should make a quote of the post - or at least make a note of it in a trivia section or something. morris, i don't think it's unprofessional to recognise that "quoted paragraph here" is the only piece of information we have on a subject. (in fact, imo, it'd be unprofessional to make it appear that we know more than we do about a particular subject.) Intelligence4 (talk) 01:52, 19 January 2017 (CET)
Published materials (All Our Sins Remembered, Raid on Volcanus, Journey’s End) refer to only six tribes that fought in the Core War and/or six Elemental Lords (EL) that ruled over the tribes: Fire, Water, Jungle, Ice, Rock, and Sand. There was also an Iron tribe, but the reason they were not given an EL and did not fight in the war was because they were wiped out by the Dreaming Plague before the Great Beings created the ELs.
Initially, the Earth tribe was simply a placeholder tribe for Tera, a new character that would’ve been introduced in the fifth movie if not for its cancellation. As Greg said, “none of the concepts or characters in it are official or have any role in the official universe...so there isn't much point in paying attention to it in terms of anything canon.” The Earth tribe ended up becoming the Iron tribe.
Later, Greg reintroduced the Earth tribe into canon, and explained why they were never shown in the story previously. This makes sense of why Earth was never shown before, and it might be argued that it doesn't contradict the previously mentioned published materials since they are from in-universe perspectives, but it doesn’t explain the Chamber of Elements. When this was brought to his attention, Greg stated that the ELs were not created “at the same time, so [the Great Beings] were not limited to six,” implying the EL of Earth was created using one of the other element’s chambers, but it doesn’t explain why Earth did not have a section of the chamber of its own. And again, the reason the Iron tribe did not have one is because they were wiped out before the creation of the ELs, and, presumably, the chamber. The whole reason the Earth Tribe was banished from society was from them basically starting the Core War, which started after the Chamber was built.
Also, in Riddle of the Great Beings, Chapter 6, the EL of Jungle says “I and five of my brothers were chosen by the Great Beings for the honor of leading the villages of Spherus Magna.” As it currently stands, the ELs of Jungle, Fire, Water, Rock, and Ice are male, while the ELs of Sand and Earth are female, and the only source I was able to find for the latter two was a fan suggestion from 2017. Afterwards, in Greg’s post about the backstory of the Earth Tribe, he used male pronouns to refer to the EL of Earth, but later clarified that it was a mistake when reminded of his previous answer. The basis of the suggestion is an earlier quote from Greg where he simply says that his hunch is that the ELs are mixed gender, but this answer was just the first of a few on the subject:
May 19th, 2009:
“Are the elemental lords mixed gender or are they all male or all female?”
“My hunch is mixed gender.”
May 21st, 2009:
“Is the Element Lord of Water female?”
“Haven't decided yet.”
July 15th, 2009:
“Have you decided weather or not any of the EL's are female?”
“No, I haven't.”
July 17th, 2009:
“In our Core War story, would it be okay with you if we made an Elemental Lord female?”
“Up to you. I have not decided if any of them are female, though.”
The earliest archive of Chapter 6 indicates it was uploaded to bioniclestory.com on or a little before August 7th. Greg clearly changed his mind since his online answers, making the basis of the 2017 quote faulty, and it should be discarded, if not solely for the fact that serials take precedence over Greg’s online answers.
While Riddle of Great Beings is also from an in-universe perspective, it's from that of the EL of Jungle, who no doubt would've known the existence of the EL of Earth. He is simply describing the origins of the ELs, not the Core War specifically, so if the EL of Earth is indeed canon, I see no reason why she/he would've been left out. This exact problem was brought up to Greg, but he was unable to remember enough to answer it.
My question is: why on earth (no pun intended) is the Earth tribe canon at all? To me, it seems that Angel Bob/PointlessQuestions simply wanted to reintroduce it into canon from the cancelled fifth movie, but this created the many contradictions listed above. Dag (talk) 20:22, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- Well, I can confirm that I was not trying to reintroduce it into canon. At the time, I considered myself an unofficial "journalist" for BS01, trying to supply Greg with canon grounding to clarify some of his more controversial answers. I wasn't very good at it, mind you, but that was my intent.
- There were several rounds of canon controversy over the Earth Tribe; unfortunately, they were mostly centered on this talk page, which was wiped when the page was, at one point, deleted. (I'm actually the one who led the push to delete it!)
- If anyone was trying to ram the Earth Tribe into canon, it was Greg. From my perspective, I was trying to give him an out to decanonize the tribe; instead, he buckled down and made new explanations for the seeming contradictions. I hesitate to read too much into his answers, but given the work he put into it, he seemed determined to introduce a new tribe retroactively.
- So, why are they canon? Well, essentially, because Greg wanted them to be, as he succinctly put it here. Whether we accept that, simply on the basis of Greg's enthusiasm, is up to us as fans and custodians. --Angel Bob (talk) 21:23, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- Let me rephrase. What I meant by "why is this canon" was "why does BS01 choose these late 2014/2017 quotes as canon over earlier answers and published material?" Simply concluding that "Greg wanted it to be" isn't a sufficient answer when dealing with contradictions such as this. Greg was well aware of the origins and most, but not all, of the apparent contradictions of the existence of the Earth Tribe. This definitely isn't a forgetcon, but it does contradict published material. As I mentioned, he couldn't give an answer for the EL of Jungle's line in Riddle of the Great Beings. Dag (talk) 21:50, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- Then we're on the same page. This situation was created in an attempt to comply with Greg/BS01's vague rule on canon (for anyone unaware: earlier answers trump later answers, unless those later answers are specifically informed about contradictions and explain them), but it's landed in a middle ground (addressing some, but not all, of the contradictions).
- If BS01 were to take the most strict interpretation of the later-answers "policy", then the Earth Tribe would fail to pass muster, and should not be considered canon. We've done that before, we can do it again, and I'd support it now, as I did then. But I'm not sure what is the best procedure to follow. Should we put this to a vote in the Articles for Deletion, or simply petition a mod to sign off on it? --Angel Bob (talk) 22:16, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- There is one thing that just occurred to me. We've been interpreting the Core War story as an explanation for why the tribes don't mention the Earth Tribe. However, it might have been Greg's intention for that to explain the Jungle Lord's comment, as well. His phrasing is vague - this is an explanation for "why the Earth tribe are never talked about", that "accepted wisdom" was that the Earth Tribe were villains, and "no one" wanted to speak of them. One 'could' argue that the concluding sentence ("They were effectively banished from society") means that this only applies to the Agori tribes, but next to all of the other vagaries, I think that would be a weak claim. It seems a bit illogical that the Element Lords would somehow have access to the same knowledge as the Agori tribes, since they were "imprisoned" at the time - but Greg isn't known for worldbuilding based on logic.
- The case to decanonize the Earth Tribe rests on the assertion that it contradicts the Jungle Lord's comment in 'Riddle of the Great Beings'. If Greg's explanation were interpreted to mean that the Jungle Lord has resolved never to speak of the Earth Tribe or its Element Lord, then there would be no contradiction. I'm just as eager to delete this sordid page as anyone, but we might be incorrect in doing so. --Angel Bob (talk) 02:18, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- The case for decanonization isn't based only on the EL of Jungle's quote (although it is a big factor). I would argue it does contradict All Our Sins Remembered, Raid on Volcanus, Journey’s End, and any other materials I've missed that only refer to six tribes/ELs, but even if it doesn't, it at least causes unnecessary convolution. Why does the Earth Tribe need to exist in the story? Why did they have to instigate the Core War from behind the scenes? The story made sense prior to its canonization, so it will still make sense if its decanonized. There is also the Chamber of Elements. Greg stated that the EL of Earth was simply created using one of this six chambers, but doesn't explain why Earth wasn't given a section of its own. Again, the whole reason Earth was basically banished from society was because of their involvement in the Core War, but this Chamber predates that, so there is no reason that Earth shouldn't have had it's own section in the chamber. The only logical explanation I could see being offered is that it was later destroyed as part of the effort to erase Earth from history, but this makes no sense. It's clear from the design of the chamber that it's divided into six even sections, so there simply isn't a place for a seventh. Even if there was, who would've destroyed it? It couldn't have been anyone other than the Great Beings since it was hidden until discovered by Kiina. Dag (talk) 02:50, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- The Chamber of Elements isn’t that big of a deal as far as the canonicity of the tribe goes. Obviously it would make more sense to have 7 chambers for each EL rather then having them be used in shifts, yeah, but that’s not really a contradiction. It’s more like a convoluted justification for there only being 6 chambers, but one that is still acceptable storywise. And yeah, the entire existence of the tribe makes the story more convoluted than it needs to be, but if we didn’t consider needlessly convoluted lore canon then we should still consider Tuyet dead lol.
- That said, you do make a good point in that Greg’s explanation of why the Earth Tribe was never mentioned in the main story fails to account for examples of internal dialogue or narration from no one’s particular POV that only refer to 6 ELs (like Angonce’s internal dialogue in the prologue of Journey’s End and the narration in AOSR) because the fact that people don’t like to mention the tribe doesn’t explain them not being ever even thought about. After all, one would expect Angonce to think about the tribe basically being responsible for the entire war when he’s thinking back on the past mistakes of the GBs.
- So yeah, as it stands, the existence of the Earth Tribe does contradict some published material, but it seems (as Dorek suggested) that Greg meant to simply retcon the inconsistencies.
- If we went by the general rule of “published material > Greg’s quotes” the Earth Tribe shouldn’t be considered canon, but I don’t think it should be applied here. It is a rule of thumb to account for accidental contradictions, not intentional retcons. So if the retcon was a conscious decision on Greg’s part then we should respect it, as he is the one in charge of the story.
- I’d be opposed to having the page deleted again since Greg went out of his way to at least try and make it fit into canon the last time it happened, and while I can kinda see the case for doing so, I don’t think it’s justified by the “published material” rule, as we are talking about an intentional retcon. But if the page does end up being deleted, I think we should mention somewhere (maybe in the trivia section of the Iron Tribe?) that Greg intended to make the Earth Tribe canon but that it is not considered as such on this wiki because of the various inconsistencies. ~OnionShark 06:08, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- I think the Chamber of Elements does have importance for the Earth Tribe's canonicity. If the reason the page was recreated after being deleted was because of Greg's explanation of the inconsistencies, he didn't cover that one (he explained how the EL was created using one of the other elements' existing chambers, but not why Earth wasn't given their own in the first place). It's a simple question: do we go with the initial explanation that the Earth tribe was just a placeholder name for the Iron tribe, making it non-canon, or do we go with Greg's later explanation of why it is canon, whose sole purpose is to fix a plot hole that doesn't even exist, which in turn created plot holes? Occam's Razor, BS01's policy of preferring Greg quotes closer to the stories conclusion (2010-2011), and going with published material over his online answers would all suggest making the Earth tribe non-canon.
- The idea that the “published material > Greg’s quotes” rule only applies to forgetcons is faulty. Whether that's the case for when the story was still active is debatable, but in this instance of a canonization seven years after the fact, Greg was always hesitant of retcons and deferred precedence to his previous answers.
"There are things I do not want to do. I am not going to add new Toa elements, and I do not want to start doing a lot of retcons which is why I made the rule that if one of my answers is contradicted by pre-established canon, canon takes precedence. The kind of things I have been canonizing -- an extra Rahi for Mata Nui, a name for a Toa team -- are minor and do not ruin or retcon anything from past story."
"The rule is, if a previous answer already exists, that answer takes precedence. It's impossible for me to remember everything I said when I was answering hundreds a questions a day during BIONICLE's active years, so if I have answered something before, I defer to past me."
"The policy here is that if pre-existing answers are out there, then they take precedence. It's impossible for me to remember every answer i have given on forums dating back 12 years."
- Greg makes it clear that he didn't want to do intentional retcons, and even if he did, he is simply unable to remember every detail about it (which is perfectly understandable), so he is uncomfortable doing so. That's why making the Earth tribe canon in 2014/2017 was really strange for him to do. I don't know why he wanted it canon, but it goes against pretty much everything else he has said regarding the Earth tribe previously or canon precedence in general. Dag (talk) 15:36, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
My interpretation was always that even though Greg wasn't presented with an exhaustive list of contradictions for this particular issue, the overall depth/specificity of the declaration is meant render other inconsistencies as retcons (see: Energized Flame SwordS). Frankly yes, addressing an exhaustive list would have been a better tack, but Greg and whoever was asking at the time seemed pretty bent on introducing it, so it is what it is. "Greg wanted it to be" is apparently sufficient for plenty more things that don't have any real basis, so yeah, we could be more strict, but it still requires parsing individual cases out. I'm just as happy to get rid of it. -- Talk 02:39, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- The example of the Energized Flame Sword(s) is not applicable in this situation. There is contradiction among published material on how many swords Jaller actually had. In this instance, all published material is in agreement that there is no Tribe/EL of Earth directly mentioned. It's whole existence is simply a retcon after the story's conclusion based on an idea pitch for the cancelled fifth movie. Plus, Greg confirmed earlier that this "Earth" tribe was simply a place holder for what became the Iron tribe. Dag (talk) 02:50, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- Funny enough, all the published material before and after BL7, except 2 times in that book, agree that Jaller had only one Energized Flame Sword. Even in BL7, Jaller had one sword originally, before he duped it for lighting, which in that context wouldn't have required 2 swords, and seeing that the chase scene from the Zyglak was retconned in the BEU with Vezon's involvment, it makes less and less sense to have the BL7 over all the books and comics of 2006, and the BEU, bionicle.com, bioniclestory.com, and the Makuta's Guide.--Surel (Talk) 07:13, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- And Greg originally clarified the "swords" as a typo.[June 07] Before saying he needed Jaller to have two swords.[July 07][February 08] I'd personally go with the first quote saying it was a typo to solve the controversy by the way...--Surel (Talk) 07:41, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
I see three points of contention: Why is the Earth Tribe and its lord never mentioned? Adressed. Why are there only 6 chambers? Adressed, whether you like the answer or not. As for the genders, the "brothers" line calls the Element Lord of Sand into question, but not the existence of the Earth Tribe. ~ Wolk (talk) 06:33, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- Where was it addressed why the Earth tribe did not have its own section in the Chamber of Elements? The only answer I have found related to it was this:
"There appear to only be six chambers in the laboratory where the Element Lords were created. Was the Element Lord of Earth created elsewhere? Or was the Earth Lord perhaps created in the central chamber of that laboratory, from which all the others branch off?"
"The element lords were created in "shifts," not all at the same time, so they were not limited to six."
- This only explains how the Earth EL was created using one of the other element's chambers, not why Earth wasn't given its own. It makes no sense as to why they would be left out.
- The EL of Jungle's line about the gender doesn't automatically call Sand into question, it means either Earth or Sand must be male instead of female at the very least. If Earth remains canon, there is doubt whether the EL of Earth is actually female. Even more so, if one of the ELs were female, whether it be Earth or Sand, why weren't they mentioned by the EL of Jungle? He mentioned only his five brothers, not a sister. It would only make sense to say he left off Earth because they were banished from society if the EL of Earth really is female, but again, there is enough to doubt that. Dag (talk) 13:42, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- Unlike the other ELs, The EL of Earth was stuck on Bota Magna rather than Bara Magna. It's reasonable to think that the EL of Jungle assumed his sister was dead, so he only mentioned his brothers. By the sound of it, the EL of Earth was also the outlier of the group, being less violent and territorial than her brothers, so the El of Jungle might not have felt inclined to call her "sister."
- Ultimately, Greg said it's canon, so it's canon. The part about the element chambers doesn't make sense to me either, but it was confirmed, so it's our duty as wiki editors to include it. -- Toa Jala Converse 00:34, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
I think my argument has been greatly misunderstood. I am not arguing that the Tribe & EL of Earth should be decanonized simply because "I don't like it" or "I don't think it makes sense." I have looked for every Greg quote, reference in published material, and even previous fan discussions even remotely related to this before starting this discussion. I don't think some of this material was even presented the first time around back in 2016-2017. After finding all I could, it is my honest conclusion that, with all things considered, they should be decanonized, and no one so far has been able to give valid reason why they should stay.
Wolk, I felt a little insulted that you said the Chamber not having a section specific to Earth was "addressed, whether you like the answer or not," which I have explained to you was definitely not addressed, and you would have known that if you thoroughly read what I had said. You are one of the most informed people I know on canon, which is why I greatly respect you, but that's also why you should have known better. And again, the EL of Jungle's quote does impact the existence of the EL of Earth. Earth and Sand were canonized as female in the same quote under the same faulty basis. The reason to leave Earth as female is to make it fit with Jungle's quote so Earth can remain canon, but that's circular logic.
Toa Jala, you are correct that, in general, what Greg says goes since he is the sole decider of canon, but that's not an acceptable answer in the case of a contradiction such as this. Greg has said quite a few things that this wiki has deemed non-canonical because they contradict something of higher precedence, so doing the same here if necessary is no different. Instead of saying "Greg said it's canon, so it's canon," which provides nothing of substance to the discussion, why not give an answer that considers Greg's answers from around the same time where he seemingly does a 180 and says he is against retconning major parts of the story and that previous answers take precedence, or how he initially said in 2009 that Earth was just a placeholder for Iron? There's even the quote from December 2014 where he says "none of the concepts or characters in [the fifth movie] are official or have any role in the official universe," which he said just months after making the Earth Tribe canon in May 2014. Greg said all these things too, so which ones are canon? When working on the Earth Tribe's backstory, Greg did not want to retcon anything, saying that he had "to check a few things to make sure it doesn't contradict past story," but he clearly forgot about the Chamber of Elements, or else he would've probably mentioned it in the backstory. It was only when a fan asked him about it did he say the EL of Earth was just created using one of the other six chambers, but still no explanation why Earth wasn't given a section for itself in the first place. That's a contradiction, and so the whole backstory should be discarded by Greg's own standard. Also, your explanation for why Earth wasn't included by Jungle does make sense, I admit, but it's simply headcanon and unconfirmed.
I genuinely believe that both of you made your votes for against on the AfD topic based on false pretenses and misunderstandings of my argument, which is why I think they should be invalided. If you have a genuine reason why the EL and Tribe of Earth should remain canon, I would love to hear it. Otherwise, I highly encourage you to reevaluate your decisions. Dag (talk) 04:56, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- Re the Cavern of Elements: you keep asking why the GBs didn’t give the EL of Earth a chamber of her own. Well, she was given one, and then it was repurposed for another EL after her shift. Why do you think this answer is not acceptable? Do you think there’s a particular reason they should have left it there untouched? For what purpose? Wouldn’t it have been more convenient to repurpose a chamber they had already used rather than making a new one for a later shift? I don’t see the contradiction here.
- Re the EL of Jungle’s quote: it’s not unusual to use the plural “brothers” in a metaphorical sense to refer to comrades or peers both male and female, think of the phrase “we are all brothers.” Throughout the story many characters refer to mixed-gender groups this way, hell, 15% of the members of the Brotherhood of Makuta were female. Chirox referring to the Mistika Makuta as “our brothers down below” (BL9, ch. 8) or Mutran calling them “our brothers in the swamp” (ch. 9) doesn’t suddenly make Gorast male. Nor does Helryx calling the Toa Mata “my brothers” (BL10, interlude 3) make Gali male. So the EL of Jungle calling the other ELs his “brothers” doesn’t necessarily mean Sand or Earth can’t be female.
- Re Greg’s answers: look at the quotes you provided a few edits back. When Greg says that earlier answers take precedence, he’s explicitly talking about cases in which he contradicts pre-established canon due to forgetfulness, he never said “if I take the conscious decision to retcon something later on don’t listen to me.” We are not ignoring what he said, I just think you’re misinterpreting it. And it’s also a misinterpretation to think that Greg said he would never retcon anything. He said he didn’t want to retcon anything major and that in general he didn’t want to make a lot of retcons. What does the existence of the tribe retcon? A few lines of narration and dialogue stating that there were 6 tribes or 6 ELs,. I wouldn't call that major.
- Look, I’m not a fan of retcons either but ultimately Greg decides what is canon or not. It sucks but what can you do :/ ~OnionShark 08:19, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- While you are correct that it isn't explained why Earth was not given its own chamber, and while it's convoluted and not a good explaination that they used one of the other six chambers, it doesn't make it a contradiction or invalid. If this is not what adressing it is, then I don't know what you are after. ~ Wolk (talk) 11:34, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- OnionShark, you can't possibly accuse me of finding an answer I haven't heard before not acceptable. This entire time, I have not understood the Chamber of Element as Earth having a section which was repurposed for one of the other elements, but the other way around. This is clear from the fact that out-of-universe, it was designed before the Earth Tribe even existed. Even if it was as you propose, there's still one element left out, and no explanation to why that is. It's not in the novelization, but in The Legend Reborn, Kiina specifically says "each chamber contains the elements that were once plentiful on Bara Magna." You could say that since Kiina said Bara Magna, that doesn't include Bota Magna where the Earth Tribe is from, yet the Jungle Tribe is from Bota Magna too, and they were included. You could also argue that since this is from Kiina's perspective, she probably left of Earth on purpose, but that still doesn't explain why the Great Beings didn't create a separate chamber for them in the first place. I honestly don't see how you think this isn't a problem with the canonicity of the Earth Tribe.
- For the EL of Jungle's quote, yes, it is true that "brothers" has been used as a general term for sibling, but every instance you gave is just that, a vague generalization. The EL of Jungle said that he had five brothers, a specific number. Coupled with the Greg quotes about how he wasn't sure if any of them were female yet, it's quite clear that he ended up wanting them all male. In another quote after Riddle of the Great Beings Chapter 6 was uploaded, Greg referred to the EL of Sand with male pronouns.
- For the Greg quotes, only the second and third I replied to you with directly talk about forgetcons (and honestly, I would argue that the Earth Tribe is one big forgetcon), but the first quote was about retcons in general. Greg knows he has the power to do so, but he still doesn't want to, and again he made that clear when he said he had to check if the Earth Tribe's backstory didn't contradict past story, but it does. The addition of the Earth Tribe retcons more than just the number of tribes. It retcons who found EP first, how the Core War started, and again (I'm becoming frustrated with how often I'm having to repeat myself) the Chamber of Elements.
- Wolk, you finally admit that it wasn't explained why Earth didn't have it's own chamber, but you immediately contradict yourself by doubling down that it was addressed. Where was it addressed that it isn't a contradiction? All you've done is say it isn't with nothing to back it up. Dag (talk) 13:48, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- I never denied that there was no explaination for why the Great Beings reused a chamber instead of making a seventh, but there not being an explaination is different from it being a contradiction. As has been quoted previously, the Elemental Lords were not necessairily all made simultaneously, and there is nothing saying they couldn't repurpose a chamber. Thus, the Elemental Lord of Earth could have been made in one of the other six chambers, prior to whatever element it is now. Do we have this explaination spelled out? No (though it is implied). Do we have an explaination as to why the Great Beings would go about it in that way? No. Does the lack of an explaination mean it's a contradiction? No. - because nothing is stopping this from being the case. It was Greg's answer to there being seven EL but only six chambers, and this is the call that he made then to explain it. I see a stupid explaination and incomplete, not a contradiction. That doesn't invalidate it.
- As for the Core War and EP, yes, it sort of retcons it, but not really. It's a method often used in media, changing the narrative that you've so far been lead to believe - because the reader hasn't been told the full truth. Sure, this wasn't planned back then, these kinds of plot threads aren't always. Point is, it isn't so much a retcon, as a change in perspective. From the perspective presented in 2009, yes, the Ice Tribe discovered it first, but we didn't have the full picture. Much like with Velika's identity. How would treat this "retcon" if it was in a serial or book?
- And yes, Greg said it was originally a placeholder of the Iron Tribe; he didn't say there wasn't an Earth Tribe. That doesn't mean he can make use of the concept. I think it's evident that Greg introduced the Earth Tribe with intent, going so far as to write up a backstory post on them. I fully believe if we were to ask him today, he would still stand by that they are canonical. ~ Wolk (talk) 17:27, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
"I never denied that there was no explaination for why the Great Beings reused a chamber instead of making a seventh"
- Yes, you did. You specifically said "Why are there only 6 chambers? Addressed, whether you like the answer or not" then when I asked you where it was addressed, you admitted it wasn't, but changed it to it's not a contradiction. Maybe it was just poor wording, but it seems like you just shifted the goalposts.
"Do we have an explaination as to why the Great Beings would go about it in that way? No. Does the lack of an explaination mean it's a contradiction? No."
- The fact we don't have an explanation makes it an open plot hole, which, if that's not a contradiction, I don't know what is.
"It was Greg's answer to there being seven EL but only six chambers, and this is the call that he made then to explain it. I see a stupid explaination and incomplete, not a contradiction. That doesn't invalidate it."
- It most certainly does. How was the EL of Earth created? Using one of the other elements chambers. Why wasn't there a separate chamber for Earth like the other tribes in the first place? No answer. These are two distinct issues that you are conflating.
"And yes, Greg said it was originally a placeholder of the Iron Tribe; he didn't say there wasn't an Earth Tribe."
- That's...exactly what he said:
"Nothing from the B5 scenario was approved canon"
"None of the concepts or characters in it are official or have any role in the official universe"
- Wolk was saying that it has been explained why we see only six chambers, and that the answer gives rise to the question "why didn't they just make seven in the first place?" He's not shifting the goalpost, and he's not conflating the two issues.
- Now, the fact that question isn't answered is not a plot hole. There are millions of possible reasons the GBs might have gone about it this way (for example, they might have used the ELoE as a first test subject and only had the other ELs transformed later as they saw the experiment was successful) and something being left unexplained is not a plot hole nor a contradiction. A plot hole is an element in a story that contradicts its otherwise coherent internal logic. There is nothing being contradicted here.
- Using those quotes of Greg discussing the canonicity of stuff from the cancelled fifth movie as evidence that the Earth Tribe isn't canon is disingenuous because they're taken out of context. In the first quote (if you read in context) he's simply saying nothing from B5 was approved by the story team. He could have corrected the asker by saying the Earth Tribe wasn't canon, but he didn't. And with the second one, yeah, you could make the case that the Earth Tribe is technically a concept in the movie script, but really the one in the script and the one in canon have nothing in common but their name. They're two completely different concepts besides that, so saying that the quote invalidates the Earth Tribe's canonicity is just stretching it. Greg was just making a general statement to say that what is written in the script is not canon. ~OnionShark 19:46, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- It was not explained why there are only six chambers instead of seven to account for Earth if it really is canon, so I have no idea what you're talking about. And the fact that there is no answer for this does make it a contradiction. Apparently you don't know the meaning of the words we're using, so let me provide you the definitions:
- Contradiction: a combination of statements, ideas, or features of a situation that are opposed to one another.
- Plot Hole: a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot.
- Retoactive Continuity (Retcon): a literary device in which established diegetic facts in the plot of a fictional work (those established through the narrative itself) are adjusted, ignored, or contradicted by a subsequently published work which breaks continuity with the former.
- Not all retcons are contradictive, like the change in perspective about the Core War, as Wolk said, but the chamber of elements has no explanation, no literary device, nothing. Therefore, it's just a contradiction or plot hole. You can come up with as many possible solutions as you want, but it's irrelevant because it's not confirmed. You're not Greg, so your answers don't matter. Dag (talk) 20:28, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
Dag, just... stop. It just feels like you're looking for whatever excuse you can to have a page you dislike deleted.
It was not explained why there are only six chambers instead of seven to account for Earth if it really is canon, so I have no idea what you're talking about.
Reread my earlier post then. I don't know how I can make it any clearer.
And the fact that there is no answer for this does make it a contradiction.
It's ironic that you later go on to condescendingly claim I don't know what the word "contradiction" means. A contradiction would be something like introducing a character as having blue eyes and later describing them as having green eyes -- something is established, and then contradicted. Whereas leaving something that has many conceivable explanations unexplained is not a contradiction because there's nothing pre-established being contradicted. You're the one who doesn't know what the term means.
Now, can you point to what is being contradicted by there being six chambers, one of which was used by two different ELs? Was there a pre-established rule that a chamber could only be used once? Was there a pre-established rule that all ELs must have a chamber of their own? Anything to that effect? The answer is no, so there's no basis to call it a contradiction.
but the chamber of elements has no explanation, no literary device, nothing. Therefore, it's just a contradiction or plot hole.
Does plot hole mean "something that is left unexplained in a story?" Does contradicting mean "to leave something unexplained?" nO. So it's just that, something that is unexplained. Which is perfectly acceptable as canon.
You can come up with as many possible solutions as you want, but it's irrelevant because it's not confirmed.
The possible explanation I gave as an example was only meant to illustrate that it's perfectly conceivable for the GBs to only build six chambers for seven ELs, that it is not inconsistent with the rest of the story i.e it's not a contradiction. What matters here isn't the reason they did it that way, but that it isn't impossible for them to have had such a reason.
You're not Greg, so your answers don't matter.
Never claimed they did m8. Just let it go. ~OnionShark 21:55, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
- BS01 is meant to be as accurate to canon as possible, and I honestly believe leaving these articles up is detrimental to that. Suggesting to "let it go" is not only insulting, but you're telling me to stop trying to maintain accuracy on the wiki. I honestly believe I'm right to argue to decanonize them, but its clear things are not going to change, unfortunately, so I'm not going to waste anymore of my time talking to you, but I will continue to maintain canon and try to resolve contradictions, and hopefully someday this can be revisited. Dag (talk) 22:22, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
First, I want to apologize for getting heated. While I still think you were misconstruing my argument and Greg’s intentions (I will explain why below), I shouldn’t have taken it so personally. By taking it personally, I wasn’t as focused on the quality of my arguments and wording, which just made things worse for everyone. Second, after taking some time away from the subject, I’d like to reevaluate some of the points brought up.
Cavern of the Elements: There is a contradiction concerning whether the ELs were made here, Greg saying once that it “makes sense” to be, but there's another quote where he denies it. In the first, Greg uses the same weak confirmation that the 2017 quote about Sand’s gender used, which is why I argued against Sand being female. However, Greg upholds that it is when explaining that the EL of Earth was made using one of the other element’s chambers. Assuming that it still is where the ELs were created, Greg confirmed that there were only six ELs and tribes, but because the surrounding questions are about the Core War specifically, this could be understood as “there were only six ELs and tribes that fought in the Core War,” which wouldn’t contradict Earth’s backstory. However, interpreting it as there were only six ELs and tribes overall (not including Iron, of course) is corroborated with there being only six chambers in the cavern. This could be a contradiction, but it’s not strong evidence either way.
JE: The prologue of Journey’s End takes place during the Core War, shortly before the Shattering. We also know that the Great Beings knew about Earth’s hidden role in the war around this time, but whether Angonce definitely knew about it before the prologue is irrelevant. There is still no reason why he should have left Earth off. It’s clear that he and the other Great Beings viewed all of the ELs as failed creations and blamed themselves for what happened, rather than the view of the Agori & Glatorian that Earth was mostly responsible, so the explanation that Earth was left off because they were blamed for the Core War is not applicable here. This is the largest contradiction concerning the Earth Tribe.
“So yeah, as it stands, the existence of the Earth Tribe does contradict some published material, but it seems (as Dorek suggested) that Greg meant to simply retcon the inconsistencies...I don’t think it’s justified by the “published material” rule, as we are talking about an intentional retcon”
You agree that the Earth Tribe does contradict previous canon, especially the JE prologue, but the idea that Greg intended to retcon the inconsistencies is verifiably false. As I mentioned before (which you seem to have glossed over), Greg checked to make sure the Earth Tribe’s backstory didn’t contradict previous canon before sharing it:
“..roughly a month ago you said you were gonna reveal a story about the Earth Tribe and why it was never mentioned in the main plot. Assuming you didn't actually reveal it, any chance of that happening soon?”
“Yes. I just have to check a few things to make sure it doesn't contradict past story.”
Whether or not Greg can retcon previous canon is irrelevant because that was not his intention here. He intended to bring the Earth tribe into canon but did not intend to contradict anything by doing so. If Greg found that his backstory for Earth did contradict something, would he have shared it as it was anyway? Of course not, but he did contradict previous canon, so he clearly missed some details, like the prologue from JE, making any retcon that came from the Earth Tribe becoming canon unintentional. Knowing that, would you still say this retcon takes precedence? Dag (talk) 02:28, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
In all honesty, this reminds me of the ‘Teridax’ reveal. It was something that had never been introduced to for years until suddenly in 08, Greg revealed it out of the middle of nowhere. However, I’ve assumed that the retcon was ‘fixed’ with an explanation that Makuta had been a nickname given to him and a species this entire time and never revealed his real name until then. Did a lot of people dislike it? Sure. Do a lot of people disagree with Greg’s contradictory statements? Of course. But since Greg is the last active member representing Lego’s story team for Bionicle, we don’t really have much of a choice, especially considering how he specifically said it was canon. A lot of people also don’t like the ongoing canon contests that Greg canonizes, but again, there’s nothing you can do about it. I think it’s already been addressed that Lego is aware of Greg approving the contests so again, nothing anybody can do about it. Anyways back to The Elemental Lord of Earth, like the retcon with Jaller’s flame swords, we can’t really do anything other than just accept that what has been confirmed canon, is canon. If Greg says so, and he’s still representing Lego, then it is what it is. As much bigger of canon that Bionicle is compared to other themes, it was obvious that it could be prone to retcons somewhere or another. Greg says it’s canon, and even though media that brings up the Elemental Lords fails to bring the character up, we can only come up with head canons for that for the time being. It’s annoying, but there’s nothing anyone can do about it. I understand where your coming from and your frustrations surrounding it, but the best thing to do might be to just acknowledge that it’s canon even if it doesn’t make any sense in story. Personally, my head canon is she was a secret or she was a disgrace to the public, so perhaps the narrator(s) could’ve purposely avoided bringing her up because of so. -- FirespitterVakama 02:04 PM, 21 September 2021 (EST)
- It's not a matter of like or dislike, and shouldn't be. But Greg said he didn't want to contradict anything by making the Earth tribe canon, and yet everyone, even those arguing for the Earth tribe's canonicity, admit there were contradictions that were retconned. All I want to know is how it's regarded as an acknowledged retcon despite Greg saying that's exactly what he wanted to avoid. Dag (talk) 19:44, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
- Well I will say one thing. There is an explanation for why Earth replaced Iron for the Elemental Lords. It was because the Iron tribe had been wiped out before the Great Beings experimented on the tribes, thus the Great Beings decided to not even bother with Iron and instead went with Earth. I thought I heard somewhere, maybe it was here, that originally Greg wanted the seventh one to be Iron, but later chose Earth, and decided that the Iron Tribe’s nearly extinct fate would play a part into that decision. So if there is one thing for certain, nobody can say that this particular situation wasn’t ‘fixed’ as part of the retcons. -- FirespitterVakama 11:16 AM, 22 September 2021 (EST)