Talk:Mask of Creation (Generation 1)

From BIONICLEsector01

Should we add how this mask is made of "raw magic and pure gold"? :P HA --Boidoh (talk) 21:28, 5 October 2014 (CEST)

I still don't get why people take issue with that statement, but regardless, not for now because the image will probably be divested from the page since it's likely a reboot. -- I AM THE DOREK do not truffle with me 22:28, 5 October 2014 (CEST)

The "List of Kanohi" paage on Wikipedia says that it is called "Kaniaku". --Duckanuva (talk) 12:33, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

This was added 9 days ago in an uncited annonymous edit.
There has been no mention of this from Greg, it does not appear in the archives, and there is no longer a list of approved names; I assure you, the mask is still unnamed. ~ Wolk (talk) 14:48, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Is it worth adding that the Mask of Creation (probably) isn't gold, according to Greg? (,5) There's some leeway in the wording, but I think it's important that all relevant quotes are cited here seeing as the mask is going to be the subject of an art contest in the coming days. Votuko (talk) 20:28, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Way I read it, it's more like "not necessairly gold." This quote has been brought up to TTV though. ~ Wolk (talk) 21:09, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
Perhaps. My thinking is that "Legendary masks must be gold" is a popular headcanon, often assumed incorrectly to be canon. Since this quote proves Greg had no such rule in mind, I feel it would add something to the page. (Even if it's only worth putting "the Mask is not necessarily gold" in the trivia section.) -- Votuko (talk) 22:05, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Unable to actually create

So, the BIONICLE: World says "While it does not actually bring things into being, it helps the wearer to envision how they should look and how they should be designed" I know that later Greg retconned this as the mask could actually make things if the wearer knows how to make something, but shouldn't take the book precedence? — SurelNuva (Talk) 09:24, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Well, one has to be wrong, since you could use the mask to learn how to make something, then make it with the mask, since you know how to make it. Chuckeroo777 (talk) 11:13, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes that is something that has bothered me. ~ Wolk (talk) 13:55, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
I would say it depends if it's an intentional retcon or not. In this case, it seems like so, so the Greg answer is probably "more canon" than World. Plus it also come from the same time the MoCr was upgraded from a standard Kanohi to a Legendary one; it's likely Greg made the decision to buff its power up to reflect this. --maxim21 13:01, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
The problem is if it can create a thing out of thin air, when the user knows how to construct it, or the user could use the mask to know how to make something, the two is basically the same. I can use the mask to gain knowledge how to make a kanoka disk, then I could use the mask to actually make the disk out of thin air, without doing anything. So it could either make you instructions, or we can say "The Mask of Creation can give the user instructions how to make something, if the user doesn't know, and then the mask could make the item out of thin air" And we already have the Ignika for "making things out of thin air" I think all the 3 Legendary Kanohi should be different then each other. Ignika can create literally anything (skyboard) from anything (seaweed), the Vahi controls the flow of the time, the Creation gives you instructions. Of course, you have to have enough mental capacity to understand every step that the mask give you, that's why only Artakha is able to harness its power.— SurelNuva (Talk) 13:17, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
I mean, if Greg intended to give it these powers, we should chronicle it as it is. We can't alter info just because we feel there is overlap... That's headcanon territory. --maxim21 13:37, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
The Ignika always created things out of other things, particularily alive or formerly alive things. Anyway, what the mask should do is irrelevant. I agree with Maxim that the question here really is if it's a forgetcon or a retcon, but I don't think we can safely say one way or another. I definitely also agree that it's a contridictary answer - the mask has the drawback of not being able to create something the user doesn't already know how to create, but this drawback is completely negated by the secondary ability to give the user instructions for said thing, making the drawback completely and utterly irrelevant. Saying the user can be provided instructions, or make something out of thin air, and if doing the latter is also provided the instructions, has the same effect. One possible actual drawback may be that the creations made using the mask are perhaps not as exact or delicate as something made by hand, as suggested here: Ultimately, the best solution would be to ask Greg but that does not seem like a possibility right now. ~ Wolk (talk) 13:41, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
Would you ask him Wolk? I would say that until further confirmation about this contradiction, we should only use the World quote, as it was already elstablished, even if probably who asked the actual creation thing hadn't known about it.— SurelNuva (Talk) 14:29, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
The quote literally says "Does this mean that the Mask can actually create things, or can it only provide instructions for how something is to be created, as previously thought?". It's a question asking for confirmation that Greg intend to retcon the MoCr to also be able to create things after he made a comment implying it could. Is it really necessary to confirm a confirmation? And if so, should we also confirm the confirmation of the confirmation? --maxim21 15:17, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
Then the power would be "It can provide the instructions of how to make something, then could make it out of thin air if it is desired." Which is why I like the book explanation better. But til the art contest over, we can't edit the page, unless an admin does it.— SurelNuva (Talk) 15:28, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
Fair enough Maxim, that part escaped my mind. But yeah, we should probably alter the wording to present it as less of a drawback in that case, as the old presentation is very mind boggling. ~ Wolk (talk) 15:41, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

"...unless I say it in a book or a comic, I reserve the right to change my mind on things as story requires it." (

Even if this was an intentional retcon, published works still have precedence over his answers. The World guide says it cannot create, so that's the answer we should use. Dag (talk) 06:38, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

I think this is blatantly overblowing the meaning of a quote. As I understand this answer, it just means Greg reserved himself the right to freely retcon his earlier answers in OGD, and does not affect his ability to intentionaly retcon something from a book or any other published work. --maxim21 07:00, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
Yes, the context here is about retconning previous OGD answers, but "unless I say it in a book or a comic" is as clear as possible. He can't or doesn't want to retcon anything from published material through OGD, which matches his other answers about published material taking precedence. How is this overblowing the quote? Dag (talk) 07:08, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
Well, as you admit it, it fully ignores context. With the amount of Greg quotes we have, we can make Greg say pretty much everything we want if we begin to ignore context. Taking context into account, I end up with my understanding of this quote, stated above, which doesn't change anything for intentional retcons.
Furthermore, changing how Greg answers are examined nearly a decade after would be a huge can of worms, even more so given we lost around a fifth of all Greg answers on BZP. --maxim21 07:46, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
That's what I originally said. Greg didn't intent to retcon the book answer, but the OGD answer literally does that. I've just checked the question, and the member who asked didn't mention that the description, that he had Greg retcon, actually came from the World, not from another OGD quote. From "perviously thought" Greg easily could have thought that he gave the description of the power in the topic, rather than a published material, which he usually didn't retcon, unless the retcon came from another book or comic.--Surel (Talk)
Your entire argument has been that Greg can and did retcon the Mask of Creation's powers as given in the World guide book through OGD, even though he has said multiple times that published works take precedence over his OGD answers,12 and even if he did, this particular retcon would negate the mask's only drawback, making its powers paradoxical as already stated above. This reasoning is the exact opposite of Occam's razor, and you have been the only one on this page defending it. Frankly I don't know why you would want to go out of your way to do so, and I'm a little offended you belittle my argument to simply ignoring context. Dag (talk) 08:23, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
To be blunt, I "go out of my way" to answer this because reading things like "even if he did, this particular retcon would negate the mask's only drawback, making its powers paradoxical as already stated above" makes me feel like people want this to be changed is not really because of any precedence considerations but because they don't like it. At least, that's how I feel about it; I do not intend to offend you or anyone else by defending what was previously established.
Something I did not state clearly and probably should have is that this would have repercussions for other pages. One of the first thing that comes to mind is the whole EL of Earth thing. It directly contradicts Journey's End, so we should delete it under the same rule. There are probably other cases. That's another reason why I think this deserves debate.
One other thing is that this quote - the first one with creating things out of thin air, not the confirmation one - is also the one that makes Creation a legendary power. If context was missing from the original question, is this valid? After all, Makuta's Guide call the Vahi and the Ignika the only two known legendary masks. (Could probably be kept thanks to "known", not that much of an issue)
Another point: BW is not written from an omniscient POV. It's written from Helryx POV, with informations gotten from Tobduk. The narrator isn't even sure the mask really exist.
Also one reason I think this was a retcon by intent is simply the author of the question - Erebus, then General Manager of BS01 and member of the Story Squad. I think he would not have pushed for such a change without giving Greg the full context. Then again, that's not written evidence.
--maxim21 10:08, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
The point about the mask's powers becoming paradoxical is not about precedence, but its not mere opinion either. If the retcon is valid, then the mask can create something, but only if the user knows how to make it. If they don't, they can just use the mask to learn how, and then proceed to create it. It's simply illogical, and you've offered no defense for it other than "I mean, if Greg intended to give it these powers, we should chronicle it as it is."
The situation with the EL of Earth has no bearing on the Mask of Creation, they are two separate things. Only under a strictly precedence based system for canon would they be connected, and it would be problematic, but as I've talked about before on the main talk page, I think these should be evaluated on a case by case basis.
While BW was written from the POV of characters and not an omniscient narrator, the note at the beginning of the book says "the Order can rest assured that each carving is as accurate as it was possible to be." You could argue that the info on the MoC could still be wrong due to relying on myth and legend, but there would still be the problem of the imbalanced power.
Again, Greg has said more than once that published materials always take precedence over his OGD answers, and yet you continue to choose to ignore this fact. Perhaps there are genuine situations where OGD should be prioritized over published work, but this is definitely not one. Dag (talk) 14:45, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
I really see nothing more here than wanting to erase something because it doesn't please you. You mock the fact I said we should chronicle Greg word no matter our opinion of it, but what do you want this wiki to chronicle if not that? Greg stated these two powers in the same quote, as paradoxical as it may seem, it's not a paradox from the author contradicting himself in two different sources (and several restrictions may be imagined to make it works).
Something that shouldn't be lost from view is that the whole goal of precedence is to find what would Greg consider canon; hence why I make of wether this is an intentional retcon or not the heart of the question.
And really, you can't say in the same answer both that precedence must be examined case by case and hide behind the fact published works "always" takes precedence. What have you offered towards invalidating this quote? Is there any sign Greg has been misled? That it's not what he meant?
The whole POV thing make it doesn't even contradict canon. I really see no reason to invalidate this quote.
Unless there is a definitive argument, I will probably stop answering on this matter for a few days; I think I have told the arguments in favor of keeping it and the problems with removing it and more people should come to weight in one side or the other. --maxim21 15:49, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
You continue to use a strawman by reducing my argument to opinion, when it very well is not. I wasn't mocking that you want to chronicle what Greg has canonized, I was pointing out that you have no reason to say the MoC can create out of thin air other than 'Greg said so,' which, when it introduces a paradox as you even admit, should be critically examined.
Also, your suggestion that "several restrictions may be imagined to make it work" is hypocritical. That may be true, but without confirmation from Greg, as you said, "that's headcanon territory."
I never said that the current system of precedence should be completely discarded, but that it shouldn't be as strict as you make it (and I say you because you seem to be the only one doing so).
I'm not hiding anything. I completely believe that Greg cannot retcon anything from published works via OGD (if he were to do so with a later published work, that's a different situation). I meant case by case to be applied mainly to the handling of his online answers, rather than just taking the ones closest to 2011 or so.
I don't think I will change your mind, and you can have your opinions, but when you're the only one arguing for the retcon, whereas Wolk, Surel, and I are against it, you should seriously reconsider whether you are actually correct. I wholeheartedly agree more people should weigh in on the issue, but for the time being, I'm undoing your edit because of this. Dag (talk) 16:15, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
I think BW being from an in-universe perspective is a very good point here. On another note, Greg has in the past said the mask is a regular Great Mask ( however, if we are to go with a precedence system there, the 2010 quote ( would seem to take precedence per Greg's reservation about changing things. Seeing as the paradoxical powers are given in the same quote (, it would indeed appear that is intentional, and with the 'as previously thought' it does seem to be an intentional alteration from World. That's ultimately what the evidence seem to point towards from my perspective. ~ Wolk (talk) 16:32, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
Yeah this seems like an intentional retcon from when the mask became Legendary instead of Great. The new power doesn't necessarily invalidate the original power either. Like if you have full-on self-driving car, you can give it a destination, let it figure out which route to take, and let it drive all the way there on its own. That's like the Mask of Creation giving you the full royal treatment. (Hey mask, tell me how to design this thing... cool now make that design you just gave me.) Sometimes, you may know exactly what route you want to take, but you don't feel like driving there yourself, so you can give your car an exact route and it'll drive it for you. (Hey mask, I came up with this cool design... make it for me.) Or maybe you have no clue how to get where you want to go, but you feel like driving today, so you give your car your destination, and once it recommends a route you drive there yourself. (Hey mask, I feel like crafting today... tell me how to design this thing and I'll make it myself.) And like how self-driving is a more complex problem than calculating a route, the mask's "make this" power probably requires more willpower than the "design this" power, so I bet Greg came up with it when he upped the mask from Great to Legendary. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 21:52, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
It doesn't matter whether it was intentional or not. Greg has made it clear multiple times that books take precedence over his answers. A possible exception could be when published works contradict, and an OGD answer offers a retconned solution, but there was no problem or contradiction with having the MoC not being able to create. With that, and the fact he has also said he doesn't like retconning things, I'm extremely hesitant to side with OGD over books.
And yes, it does most definitely conflict with the book's description. The description from OGD says "If you want to create something, but aren't sure how, it can provide what amounts to instructions. If you know how to make what you want, it can make it for you." Once the mask gives you instructions, you know how to make it, so it can then make it for you. That's just 'create anything out of thin air, whether you know how to make it or not' with extra steps. Dag (talk) 02:49, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
I'm afraid I don't think I understand your argument. There are other instances in canon where Greg quotes unambiguously take precedence over Greg's prior written material. One example that maxim mentioned is the EL of Earth, which superseded prior published material that Greg wrote. If I understand your argument correctly, then the EL of Earth isn't canon. But since you said that example didn't apply earlier, I suspect I'm misunderstanding your stance, so could you clarify?
As for your second point, you're right, poor word choice on my part. When I said the new power didn't "invalidate" the old one, I meant that just because you can use both powers back-to-back to do all the grunt work of designing and creating whatever you want, there are still use cases where Artakha may just want to use one of the powers. Sure pipelining both powers like that is kinda OP, but it's whatever since it's a legendary mask I guess. But yeah, you're totally right that the addition of that power directly contradicts the text of the book (although as pointed out above, it was written from an in-universe perspective, so if you'd like you can dismiss retcons as the author having bad info). -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 04:14, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
Since I was unaware of the EL of Earth until Maxim brought it up, I'm still not fully aware of its situation, but from what I understand right now, I would have no problems decanonizing the EL of Earth. I simply cannot ignore Greg's other answers about books always taking precedence, and see no reason why to side with OGD, either on the EL of Earth or MoC.
Also, it's not about the mask being OP. I agree that it being Legendary gives it the right to be, but that's not the problem. The problem is that it's OGD description is unnecessarily convoluted. If it can create things only when you know how to make them, but the mask can show you how to make them anyway, why not just say the mask can make anything, even if you don't know how to make it? Dag (talk) 04:52, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
I sided against the EL of Earth for the very same reason, and because the Earth Tribe was originally the placeholder name of the Iron Tribe. But as Greg wrote the story of the Earth Tribe & the Lord of Earth, andgave a reason why they were earesed from their history for erupting the Core War from the shadows kinda make sense. Nobody wants to remember them for this, so nobody really mentions them. IIRC the All Our Sins Remembered is in Raanu's POV, and where the Lords are mentioned in The Journey' End is in Angonce's POV. Both characters would forget what the Earth Tribe did, and probably won't mention them unless it is necessary.--Surel (Talk) 06:28, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
Honestly, I really don't get why you making this far more complicated than it should, Dag (and why others have started it...).
As explained above, this non-forgetcon retcon isn't even one since BW is written with the in-universe perspective of OoMN agents about a mythical mask worn by a dude, older than the very universe he lived in, that virtually no MUians has ever seen in person for almost one hundred thousand years. Of course, "the Order can rest assured that each carving is as accurate as it was possible to be" has to be highly taken into account. In addition, I really don't see the """paradox""" or imbalance with the MoC having these two capacities. As explained by Morris (really liked the self-driving car analogy ahah), they're complementary rather than anything else. Plus, we're talking about a legendary mask: the OP gimme blueprints for anything, then materialize it out of nothing operation would certainly be unsafe (or simply impossible in practice) if it's not done without razor-sharp focus and calm, steady step-by-step mental processes.
"The problem is that it's OGD description is unnecessarily convoluted. If it can create things only when you know how to make them, but the mask can show you how to make them anyway, why not just say the mask can make anything, even if you don't know how to make it?"
Because, for years, GregF continuously answered to more or less one hundred questions a day on his free time about stuff he wrote years ago? I really don't know where you want to go with this one. But it certainly touches a broader issue about precedence and how the Bionicle lore is presented on BS01, and it should be addressed. The Bionicle canon isn't a clean, monolithic continuum, but a crossmedia web of interlaced comics, magazines, novels, guides, serials (see the Toa Hagah backstory), and even fans additions with contests and Q&A discussion forums (see the Earth Tribe, or even the species combinations for Dark Hunters), potentially contradicting each others. If we can bring seemingly contradictory sources back together, I guess that's fine. But in cases of multiple contexts and versions for the same fact, we should also display more clearly which source brings which piece of information to the lore.
" but when you're the only one arguing for the retcon, whereas Wolk, Surel, and I are against it, you should seriously reconsider whether you are actually correct. I wholeheartedly agree more people should weigh in on the issue, but for the time being, I'm undoing your edit because of this."
This is certainly what bother me the most in this long reading. Lets forget the fact that it's not a retcon. Lets even forget the fact that you have associated Wolk with your opinion while he didn't share it no more. The thing is support in numbers isn't an argument that makes the majority opinion valid. Now, there is maxim21, Wolk, Morris the Mata Nui Cow, and me who are in favor of the additional OGD quote. Do this opinion prevail since there's just Surel and you against it? No, it prevails because it makes more sense.
While waiting for somebody to come up with conclusive arguments and/or proofs for discarding this additional OGD quote about the MoC being able to create things out of thin air, I'll put back maxim21's edit on the page. I'll also add a trivia about the source from BW. You can all tell me what you think about it :) Du7734 23:52, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
I quite agree with Du7734. I think it's worth pointing out that it's likely (perhaps even probable) that Helryx's data is not only incomplete but dates back from a point when Artakha and the Mask of Creation were much more relevant--100,001 years ago. Everything she has on the subject probably dates from this point. It is entirely likely that the BW quote presents the base power of the mask when Artakha first claimed it as his own, but as Artakha has honed his abilities and his mastery over the mask he has reached the point where he can use it to create materials out of nowhere. Kanohi wielders are often shown discovering deeper powers of their masks (e.g. BC4 and BL9 where users manipulate the Kakama Nuva to vibrate their atoms through things). To assume that the ability to create matter is a later power would provide a reason for the two powers to be differentiated from each other. --Gonel (talk) 01:46, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
It most certainly is a retcon. From an in universe perspective, it could be rectified by the POV (although I still think this is unlikely), but out of universe, there is no question Greg initially wanted the mask not being able to actually create things, or else it probably would not have been added to the book. If Greg's idea from the beginning was that it could create, having the BW say the opposite, regardless of POV, just causes unnecessary confusion for the reader.
Again, it's not about the mask being OP. The OGD discussion has unnecessary steps that just come to the conclusion that the mask can create anything out of thin air, even if the user doesn't know how to create it. Your response to this point ignores it completely and instead you talk about precedence rather than how illogical the power itself is. The possible explanations offered, such as Morris' self driving car analogy, may seem logical, but without confirmation from Greg, its only headcanon, which is why I found it hypocritical when Maxim said several explanations can make it work while also being against appealing to headcanon.
Surel as I understand him still agrees that we should use the BW description, but I'll let him speak for himself, as I never intended to speak on anyone else's behalf. I was merely pointing out the fact that, at the time, Maxim was the only one arguing for the retcon. I agree this was not evidence for him being wrong, but a good indicator he could be. I was not aware Wolk changed his stance, and I respect his view. You cannot possibly fault me for something I did not realize at the time.
Truthfully, I am extremely disappointed in how disrespectful this discussion has been. If you disagree with me, that's fine, but when I'm told I have no argument, or that I'm ignoring context, that's simply dishonest. I thank Morris and Wolk for being respectful while disagreeing with me, but unfortunately I cannot say the same about you and Maxim. Dag (talk) 02:06, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
For that to be a retcon would require a break with in-universe continuity, a direct contradiction with pre-established canon. As explain numerous times above, it's not the case: the seemingly contradictory pieces of information provided by the BW and OGD quotes can be reconciliated by acknowledging the fact that BW is a frist-person guide book based on in-universe information compiled by OoMN agents, where the Artakha entry is sprinkled with we're not sure disclaimers. The fact that GregF intended it from the start or not isn't part of the question here, at all. That would be like saying the GSR revelation is a retcon of the good ol' "the Matoran Universe is an underworld made of gigantic caves". That's misuse of terminology.
How's the MoC's power illogical? Please elaborate on that, I genuinely don't see why this is bugging you this much. Different people explained why there isn't a real problem in the first place, with different comparisons and parables based on the most fundamental facts we know about Kanohi's operation and legendary masks. I don't see how this can be considered headcanons, we're just pondering canon elements by using other simple and reliable canon elements. Instead, saying "since the MoC can create things out of thin air, if it's destroyed, its Creation energies would leak and create random things spontanously anywhere in the Matoran Universe" would definitely be headcanon. There, I made an assumption based on the exotic behavior of the Vahi and the Ignika, not a factual deduction.
Concerning Wolk, I wrote what I wrote because it seems maxim21 convinced him at the end of the first batch of comments. So in the quote of your post (at the end of the second batch of comments), I don't really get why you still associated him this opinion. No ill will intended in my remark ;)
I don't really see how I (or even maxim21 for instance) have been disrespectful. I didn't say you had no argument either. You had yours, some of them were interesting, others were questionnable or refuted by different people's points. That's essentially how debating works. Du7734 14:54, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
At this point, I'm just repeating myself and I don't know how to make it any clearer. The mask can create anything but only if you know how to make it. If you don't, the mask can show you how, so then the mask can create it for you. This is redundant and it's simply that the mask can create anything, even if you don't know how to create it. And yes, the offered explanations are just headcanon:
"It is entirely likely that the BW quote presents the base power of the mask when Artakha first claimed it as his own, but as Artakha has honed his abilities and his mastery over the mask he has reached the point where he can use it to create materials out of nowhere." -Gonel
"the mask's "make this" power probably requires more willpower than the "design this" power" -Morris
These are most definitely just speculation, even if they do make sense, because there's no confirmation that this is the case. Morris' point could even be directly refuted by Greg's hypothetical of the mask creating things you think about subconsciously,1 which takes almost no willpower at all. The only compelling argument is the POV point, and if you don't see that as a retcon, I don't know what else to say.
I still added Wolk as being against the retcon because of my conversations with him off the wiki, where even after he seemed to have been convinced by Maxim, he voiced his opinion of how illogical the mask's power was. But again, he changed his mind, and I respect his view, so I just ask you respect mine too.
You said "waiting for somebody to come up with conclusive arguments and/or proofs," and Maxim said something similar with "unless there is a definitive argument," implying mine (especially the fact Greg has said numerous times that books take precedence) are not conclusive/definitive, which was very condescending. Dag (talk) 15:54, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
I can go along with Morris' and Gonel's explanations, as long as the page remains as it is now. I don't have that much time for BS01 now, and I'd like to take the few for edits, or adding citations/references where they are needed. I just don't fancy that the Vahi is a legendary mask too, but it only controls the time when it's broken, otherwise it just speeds up and slows down the time. The original power from the World kind of fit with the simple power of the Vahi, and it would have made sense, that the only legendary mask which has full control over a fundamental power is the Ignika, as the Mask of Life is alive, while the other 2 are not.--Surel (Talk) 12:59, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

This is the conversation that spawned that bit of trivia at the bottom of the page, isn't it? 𝙗𝙮 𝙒𝙖𝙙𝙙𝙡𝙚𝙯 05:46, 31 December 2021 (UTC)