Talk:Toa (Generation 2)

Title Pluralization

So in keeping with precedence, shouldn't the proper name for this article be Master, not Masters? --~|RC|~ ^(Talk/_Contribs)

I'm thinking this one should stay plural, because in that sense, "Great Beings" would be "Great Being", or "Bone Hunters" would be "Bone Hunter". --Vartemp 20:59, 10 October 2014 (CEST)

I just changed it to be a team, not a species, so I think the plural works a little bit better. It might change depending on how we define Master going forward, but since they are both "Toa" and "Master" this made more sense for the moment. -- I AM THE DOREK _{do not truffle with me} 21:05, 10 October 2014 (CEST)

Unlock

Can someone unlock the page? I want to add more info... Toa Green Ninja (talk) 21:39, 10 October 2014 (CEST)

Edit: nevermind

Toa?

Do we know if they've been referred to as Toa at any point? With the new simplified story, it doesn't seem unlikely that LEGO would drop the name altogether and just go with 'Masters'. »Zapnox«

Bionicle.com has referred to them as "Toa". Look under Kopaka's Bio. --Vartemp 14:58, 11 October 2014 (CEST)

Well, there's my answer. Still, it's kinda hard to spot when it's the only instance throughout all the bios. »Zapnox«

NYCC interviews and the panels have confirmed that they are indeed Toa... --Boidoh (talk) 19:04, 11 October 2014 (CEST)

Keep in mind, though, that just because they're called 'Toa' doesn't mean that they are Toa. It's still unclear if this is a hard reboot or if there's some continuity between Bionicle I and Bionicle II (I've seen conflicting sources that state both), and these guys might not have elemental energy or Toa power or anything like that. We don't know, but for now, the assumption is this is a completely separate canon from what came before. --Master of the Rahkshi ^{Ask, and ye shall receive. Eventually.} 21:29, 11 October 2014 (CEST)

They are Toa. There is no question about that, it's been confirmed from at least three different sources (Kopaka's bio, actual LEGO representatives at NYCC, and the official press release. Whether Toa means the same thing in the new continuity is not entirely clear, though. To be honest, I think calling this page "Masters" is pretty ridiculous. Nothing official has EVER used that as a group name or species name for them. It's just a description used for the individual characters. It'd be like calling the Toa Nuva page "Spirits" because the movie BIONICLE: Mask of Light called Tahu, Gali, and Pohatu "the spirit of fire", "the spirit of water", and "the spirit of stone". --Aanchir (talk) 19:41, 15 October 2014 (CEST)

That's what I meant. They're Toa, but what Toa means in this continuity is almost completely unknown. We can't just put them on the Toa page for that reason, and we will wind up making a Generation split for the Toa page. This page specifically, however, is for the team itself; I'm not a fan of the term myself, but we have no indication whatsoever of anything else to call them. We can't just slap them on the 'Toa (Generation 2)' page when we make it, because that will be a species page. 'Masters' is what we currently have to work with, and until a better term presents itself, it's what we have to use. We gotta call these people something.
That said, we should probably start brainstorming a better title for this page if an official term for this team doesn't present itself by the time they show up in the story. If you have any suggestions, lay them out. --Master of the Rahkshi ^{Ask, and ye shall receive. Eventually.} 19:57, 15 October 2014 (CEST)

It's not a species page, nerds, it's a team page. -- I AM THE DOREK _{do not truffle with me} 20:14, 15 October 2014 (CEST)

I don't entirely see why it matters whether it's a species page or a team page. The fact remains that the only official term that has been used to refer to these characters as a group is Toa, and we don't yet have any reason to assume that other Toa even exist in the new universe. For right now, there's no reason NOT to call this page "Toa (Generation 2)".

Think of it this way: if this wiki had been around in 2001 and we needed a name for Tahu's team, what would we have called it? Probably Toa, because just as now, that was the only term used to refer to them as a group at that time, and just as now, there were no other Toa to differentiate them from.--Aanchir (talk) 20:11, 16 October 2014 (CEST)

We might very well have called them the Toa Olda, but that's beside the point (I wouldn't have been around anyway :U). It's one of those things that we can't necessarily go back to. We have seen other Toa, in the previous gen, so now it twists our understanding to think of it the other way around. I would rather have an unofficial name (and I'll put the nickname template back) than make a judgment call about how the term is going to be used this early in the game.

It's true that we might never get another Toa team, or they might not deliberately classify Toa as a species name. The only thing we have to go on is a basic shop description, which I will agree implies that masters is a generic term, and leaves it open to interpretation on the Toa. The bios, on the other hand, barely use the term master OR Toa, and instead opt for "Heroes", which sees surprisingly frequent usage.

For now, I'm going to keep masters as the page name. When we get more information, this can easily change (although if they're called the Toa Okoto I'm ragequitting). But for now, in terms of categorization, this is the easiest and still most identifiable option. Still looking into how to classify certain pages, like Characters, and that might include the Toa page as well.

We'll learn what the deal is sooner or later, and to be sure there are other pages that also need reclassifying. But I don't feel particularly comfortable with using the term one way or the other, especially given how little information we have. -- I AM THE DOREK _{do not truffle with me} 22:56, 16 October 2014 (CEST)

It would have been downright ridiculous to call Tahu and co. the Toa Olda in 2001, when no fans had ever heard of a Toa Nuva. :P

It's not just the page name that's bothering me so much as every other page calling the sets and characters "Masters" regardless of context. For instance, I just saw that the Masks of Power page says that "A variety of beings can wear and use Masks of Power, including Protectors, Masters, and Mask Makers." Since this has been acknowledged to be a team page and not a species page, it seems contradictory to treat "Masters" as though it's a type of being. The Set Information section on the bottom of the page also refers to the "six Master sets", even though even the original press release described the sets as "six Toa sets".--Aanchir (talk) 23:49, 5 December 2014 (CET)

Just as a tiny bit of an aside... You are lying to yourself if you don't think somebody, probably many bodies, are going to come along and search "Masters" expecting to find this page... Whether it's in the page title or not (as in, get here from a redirect). --~|RC|~ ^(Talk/_Contribs)

On the off chance that anyone wants my opinion: now that we have some sources, and none of them call the group "the Masters", I'd be up for replacing this page with "Toa (Generation 2)". However, I'm iffy about making that a species page. G2 is, so far, unclear about differentiating species; it's quite possible that the Toa are, in fact, the same species as the villagers, but somehow upgraded.

Whatever we do end up doing, in the meantime, can we please stop using grey as the template's color? It's incredibly ugly. :P --Angel Bob (talk) 00:43, 6 December 2014 (CET)

An additional argument: Using Toa (Generation 2) as a species page and "Masters" as a page for this team presumes that we will meet more Toa in this continuity. So far, that isn't looking likely. Unless Toa turns out to be an entire species in this continuity, the two pages will be completely redundant. --Angel Bob (talk) 00:47, 6 December 2014 (CET)

You've given multiple possible realities, which only highlights that it'll be a lot easier knowing what decision to make when we actually have some information =P. It seems like the Toa's arrival is a central part of the mythos, so I'm sure we'll get more information in the future.

In the meantime, leaving this page where it is, I wouldn't be opposed to "Toa" becoming "Toa (Species)", Toa being a disambig, and Toa (Generation 2) being a redirect to either here or the Toa disambig page.

(Is there any reason none of the pages have been titled WITH "Disambiguation"? I never know when it's appropriate to use that in the title.) -- Dorek _Talk 06:22, 6 December 2014 (CET)

With the animations, I'm gonna bring this topic back up.

The animations never called them "Masters", so I'd be for moving this to "Toa (Generation 2)". And keep it as an organization page; for all we know, they are the only Toa in the rebooted continuity. --Vartemp ^Talk 23:51, 16 December 2014 (CET)

Seconding this sooooo haaaaaard --Angel Bob (talk) 00:00, 17 December 2014 (CET)

The character animations seem to suggest that they start out as Toa but earn the title of Master when they retrieve the Golden Masks, so thirded. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 00:27, 17 December 2014 (CET)

Status

This page says they're active, but the individual pages say status: unknown. Since, last we saw them, they were all alive, shouldn't the pages say status: alive?--Willess12 (talk) 17:21, 13 October 2014 (CEST)

Obviously, they are all alive. (And it was me who put active because its obvious, LEGO wouldn't sell us dead characters in the first wave) --Boidoh (talk) 17:23, 13 October 2014 (CEST)

When have we seen them? So far they haven't appeared in the story at all, such as it is. For all we know the Mask of Creation brings them into being long after Ekimu and Makuta have their spat. Be patient guys. The information will come. --Master of the Rahkshi ^{Ask, and ye shall receive. Eventually.} 17:29, 13 October 2014 (CEST)

...What? Of course they're alive though...

It may not be in an animation, but that's not the only source out there. There's their biographies. The flyers LEGO handed out clearly stating that they just arrived on Okoto. And more, I'm sure. --~|RC|~ ^(Talk/_Contribs)

I put unknown on the templates originally just because it was easier to copy down. They're alive, yeah. Seems pretty apparent. -- I AM THE DOREK _{do not truffle with me} 17:38, 13 October 2014 (CEST)

Bring GameTheory from YouTube here and tell them to make some stupid theory about how the Masters are actually dead. Thumbs up to whoever gets what I'm referencing... Link is dead in Majora's Mask --Boidoh (talk) 17:41, 13 October 2014 (CEST)

Crash Landing

Where are we getting this information about the Masters crash landing on Okoto and being aided by the Protectors? I assume it comes word-of-mouth from NYCC, but if we can't pin down a solid source for this information, it shouldn't be on the wiki. Excited editors adding information without citations have always been one of BS01's greatest problems, and we should try to be better than that. --Angel Bob (talk) 16:54, 14 October 2014 (CEST)

On the back of posters given away at NYCC here. Toa Green Ninja - Bearer of the Mask of Spinjitzu (talk) 17:46, 14 October 2014 (CEST)

Masters > Toa (Generation 2)

I can agree with Aanchir with this being a bit ridiculous. They've been called Toa everywhere I've seen. The ONLY time I've seen Master used is in the set names, which is really only a description of what they are: masters of their element. Can we please move the page now? If there are more Toa in this universe, we'll cross that road when we come to it. Toa Green Ninja - Bearer of the Mask of Spinjitzu (talk) 16:50, 4 January 2015 (CET)

Seconded. Seconded, seconded, seconded. --Angel Bob (talk) 17:15, 4 January 2015 (CET)

Yeesh, people find this a huge deal apparently. I'll think about it. -- Dorek _Talk 21:09, 4 January 2015 (CET)

Not to be pushy, but it's been more than a week. --Jswanson37 (talk) 4:29, 12 January 2015 (CET)

Honestly, I'm not seeing why it's such a huge deal or why the change is so mandatory. When we first learned about the new sets, we had three very distinct classifications; Protectors, Masters, and Lord. The repeated use of these honorifics was not a coincidence, it was to create a sense of hierarchy in the characters.

Much as the Protectors are also villagers (and have been used interchangeably, but regardless), the Masters ARE ALSO TOA. How we define Toa going forward remains to be seen, however; regardless of how we use the terms, if we are to take the Toa as a species, then there would be a separate page for Toa. We currently have very little information regarding how the term is used, so it exists as a redirect, which adheres to convention as we've always done it. The term Toa goes to the disambig page, as it should, while the term Toa (Generation 2) goes to the Masters page.

I personally don't see any confusion in the way we use the terms. Both are used (Toa moreso, granted) to describe these characters and who they are. Both terms are usable and searchable to the best possible ability, and personally I think the desire to see Toa as the page is an inherent Gen 1 nostalgia bias. -- Dorek _Talk 05:45, 12 January 2015 (CET)

new episodes

Episodes 5 and 6 are available in Czech, and episodes 7, 8, and 9 are available in Italian. Should we add info from them, or wait until the episodes come out in English? --Willess12 (talk) 19:33, 26 January 2015 (CET)

I'd like to wait until they're out in English, but the release dates can be noted on the actual animations page. -- Dorek _Talk 21:27, 26 January 2015 (CET)

might be the wrong place to put this, but i couldn't think of any other better place: besides the animations on bionicle.com, where is the new story being currently told? i've heard something about some novels to be released in the future, but other than that, is it just the animations? Intelligence4 (talk) 10:12, 4 July 2015 (CEST)

There's a series of chapter books upcoming, and it looks like each year is going to have a graphic novel (maybe more, depending, but right now there's one for the end of this year and the beginning of next year). The animations are what we're considering the primary source, though, since they're the ones with the most continuity. -- Dorek _Talk 18:57, 4 July 2015 (CEST)

Uniters

Not to reopen this can of worms, but what's the plan for this page going forward? New sets are called Uniter of X, so it wouldn't make sense to keep just this page called Masters. To me, it seems like the two options are a Uniters and a Masters page, or one big page called Toa (Gen 2). I think this transition (from a story perspective) is just going to be new armor/tools (like Nuva -> Phantoka/Mistika), not a bodily transformation (like Inika -> Mahri) (although, granted, that's speculation on my part), so if that's the case, I think it makes sense to keep the team's info on a single page, like the G1 Toa Nuva page. Plus, as the year has proceeded, it seems like the collective term used for this team again and again has been "Toa" over "Masters" (Gathering of the Toa, "They (the creatures) must be tamed and unite with the Toa." (a snippet from Nov-Dec LEGO Magazine), etc.). If we see Uniters, in plural form, used to refer to the team, I'll change my tune, but it seems like Masters and Uniters are most analagous to Mistika and Phantoka from G1, terms used to identify set lines, not teams. My two cents. --Volitak Boxor (talk) 20:57, 24 November 2015 (CET)

I was going to go with Toa (just had my cursor hovering over the move button but decided I'd rather wait until we get a bit more story material).

Even if we do see them referred to as "Uniters", I'd still likely go with Toa, because it is the one unifying (no pun intended) term; I'm still not backing down as Masters having been (past tense) the most effective term to use, but if we're going to keep the info all on one page, a more singular term is the best from an organizational perspective.

The Phantoka/Mistika point is also a really good one; while we could have all of the info divided onto two pages, like we do with transformed Toa, the terms here are definitely more titles, so it makes sense to keep it all on one page. Plus, since we haven't been introduced to any new Toa, it works. My one lingering doubt is if more Toa, for whatever reason, get introduced, but at this point the organizational efficiency outweighs the pain of changing it in the future.

tl;dr yeah I'll change it, some time around the new year probably. -- Dorek _Talk 21:13, 24 November 2015 (CET)