Talk:Protodite
From BIONICLEsector01
Plural Noun
This page use "protodites' for the plural of protodite, and I do think that this is how they were referred to in the story. However, this would make them one of the only Matoran rahi names or Matoran words that had a distinct plural(Fireflyers, Husis (only in a semi-canon but still official game), Kofo-Jagas appears in MNOG(usually is Kofo-Jaga as plural in MNOG, except for one line from Mamoru in Chapter 5, so probably a mistake by the developers)), "Longfangs"(though a nickname by the Rahagah, they did speak Matoran and used the term with an s), the Manas seem like they were originally "Mana", with the "s" originally being a plural form, but has since been retconned/clarified that it is canonically both the singular and plural, and possibly more. Can we check to make sure the plural "protodites" is canon, and if it is, can we make a note of it? I should probably also post this to the Languages and/or Lexicon page. Firespitter Lhii (talk) 14:53, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, Protodites is canon, for an example check the quote atop the Zaktan page. Words such as protodermis, protodite, and protocairn are not Matoran, they're pseudo-English. Longfang and Fireflyers are also just blatantly English. I don't know how to rationalize Protodax or Exo-Toa... maybe protodermis is actually an Agori word? IDK - best I've got it is that the names weren't thought through linguistically. There's definitely an inconsistency in some source material, with things like Jagas and Ramas (though those are only in treespeak in MNOG) and the original intention of Manas. There's also Zamors. I wouldn't be surprised to see Boxors. ~ Wolk (talk) 15:32, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- While Longfangs and Fireflyers can be chalked up to just English translations, they are a name that is special to Bionicle. I think that Bionicle weapons largely can be considered to fall in that category, particularly those used pretty much if not completely exclusively in advertising and promotions, things like protodites are different. Proto Drakes and Vahki Hunters can reasonably be argued to have 's' on the end of their plurals, as they end in completely English words, and I would imagine they get translated for non-English language publications. Longfang is arguable-more canon than the nickname "The City of Legends", because both are used in official media and "Longfang" isn't an existing word, but a nickname used and written by the Rahagah, including it plural "Longfangs". "Fireflyer" would be the same case. Things here like "Protodites" is completely different. They are complex names that aren't just a simple wordmash(like Chutespeak/Treespeak terms, though I did think that those terms were canon, so IDK), or even a portmanteau of English words, as Protodermis is Matoran and we don't know that the "-ites" ending is anything more than real-world inspiration, like many Matorans' names and Rahi names. I think the answer to this is clear: Rahi name usually have the same plural, but not all. Maybe they did in ancient, original Matoran, but lots of dialects and slang has formed, so it isn't weird that it is different. We can still mostly keep the rule that improper Matoran nouns have the same plural form as the singular, except in dialects like Treespeak and some anomolous instances such as sometimes saying Zamors, Kofo-Jagas, and 'korans', metrus, and koros (if my memory serves me correctly, though admittedly, it often doesn't). We can also just say it is unknown if these or any other seeming-inconsistancies are canonical, stylization choices for readers/viewers, or simply mistakes. Zamors and Protodites are the most prominent examples, so I think they probably warrent a note if nothing else does. Firespitter Lhii (talk) 17:42, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- Protodermis is a portmanteau of proto and dermis from Latin, and Antidermis is derived there-off with the anglo 'Anti' prefix. Proto in Protodite and Protocairn is clearly too from Protodermis, with cairn referencing how the bodies of Protocairns pile up. Protodermis is not a Matoran word: https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page215#post8593-line7,19 ~ Wolk (talk) 18:17, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- This really isn't meant to be an argument, but if portmantaux aren't considered canon, even for used Matoran words and names, then how come Amphibax and Firedracax are not considered non-canon? The first part of their names come from the Greek word "amphibion" and the English words "Fire", respectively. Firedracax then also probably derives the middle of his name from either the Greek/English "Draco(ian)" or the word English word "drake", then both have -ax on the end, possibly being from the French or Latin suffix "-ax"/"-āx". The Matoran also take their names from real world words, and many Matoran words, such as "Wahi" or "Toa" are also real-world words with the same meaning, yet they follow the pluralization convention. I think that when you have a portmantaux, particularly when they go beyond the kind that appear in Treespeak/Chutespeak, and don't exist in the real world, they should be treated with the normal Matoran language rules, with pages containing notes if there is evidence that they may not be. "Longfangs" also is a nickname, similar to the codenames, and I wonder if we should treat it like such. I will make a specific "Longfang" name-change proposal on the AfD page, and maybe we should consider making some additional votes and/or proposals for other things we've brought up here, whether they just be page-name changes(which I see you have done a few of recently) or for naming convention rules. Technically, no name can ever be canon to Bionicle, as they have different 'canon' names/characters in Cyrilic, diffent translations, and we don't display them in either their Latin or Cyrilic letterings. Furthermore, we don't even know what alphabets and writing systems(if there even are any) for non-Matoran languages. Ultimately, most of this is gonna be a stylistic choice on our part, like how codenames are surrounded in quotes or how the old names of Matoran (and Takanuva) are used when refering to them in the past, something which wouldn't professionally be done if name-changes were the same culturally as they are in the real world across various cultures. Firespitter Lhii (talk) 19:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure I follow what exactly is being discussed here? Pretty much every source that uses a plural of 'protodite' has it as protodites, therefore the plural is protodites. If this is a question of why this is a word with an english-like countable plural, the reason is just like Wolk said - it is derived from an english countable noun: mites. That is what protodites are - protodermic mites.--ToaKebaka (talk) 21:58, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- This really isn't meant to be an argument, but if portmantaux aren't considered canon, even for used Matoran words and names, then how come Amphibax and Firedracax are not considered non-canon? The first part of their names come from the Greek word "amphibion" and the English words "Fire", respectively. Firedracax then also probably derives the middle of his name from either the Greek/English "Draco(ian)" or the word English word "drake", then both have -ax on the end, possibly being from the French or Latin suffix "-ax"/"-āx". The Matoran also take their names from real world words, and many Matoran words, such as "Wahi" or "Toa" are also real-world words with the same meaning, yet they follow the pluralization convention. I think that when you have a portmantaux, particularly when they go beyond the kind that appear in Treespeak/Chutespeak, and don't exist in the real world, they should be treated with the normal Matoran language rules, with pages containing notes if there is evidence that they may not be. "Longfangs" also is a nickname, similar to the codenames, and I wonder if we should treat it like such. I will make a specific "Longfang" name-change proposal on the AfD page, and maybe we should consider making some additional votes and/or proposals for other things we've brought up here, whether they just be page-name changes(which I see you have done a few of recently) or for naming convention rules. Technically, no name can ever be canon to Bionicle, as they have different 'canon' names/characters in Cyrilic, diffent translations, and we don't display them in either their Latin or Cyrilic letterings. Furthermore, we don't even know what alphabets and writing systems(if there even are any) for non-Matoran languages. Ultimately, most of this is gonna be a stylistic choice on our part, like how codenames are surrounded in quotes or how the old names of Matoran (and Takanuva) are used when refering to them in the past, something which wouldn't professionally be done if name-changes were the same culturally as they are in the real world across various cultures. Firespitter Lhii (talk) 19:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- Protodermis is a portmanteau of proto and dermis from Latin, and Antidermis is derived there-off with the anglo 'Anti' prefix. Proto in Protodite and Protocairn is clearly too from Protodermis, with cairn referencing how the bodies of Protocairns pile up. Protodermis is not a Matoran word: https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page215#post8593-line7,19 ~ Wolk (talk) 18:17, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- While Longfangs and Fireflyers can be chalked up to just English translations, they are a name that is special to Bionicle. I think that Bionicle weapons largely can be considered to fall in that category, particularly those used pretty much if not completely exclusively in advertising and promotions, things like protodites are different. Proto Drakes and Vahki Hunters can reasonably be argued to have 's' on the end of their plurals, as they end in completely English words, and I would imagine they get translated for non-English language publications. Longfang is arguable-more canon than the nickname "The City of Legends", because both are used in official media and "Longfang" isn't an existing word, but a nickname used and written by the Rahagah, including it plural "Longfangs". "Fireflyer" would be the same case. Things here like "Protodites" is completely different. They are complex names that aren't just a simple wordmash(like Chutespeak/Treespeak terms, though I did think that those terms were canon, so IDK), or even a portmanteau of English words, as Protodermis is Matoran and we don't know that the "-ites" ending is anything more than real-world inspiration, like many Matorans' names and Rahi names. I think the answer to this is clear: Rahi name usually have the same plural, but not all. Maybe they did in ancient, original Matoran, but lots of dialects and slang has formed, so it isn't weird that it is different. We can still mostly keep the rule that improper Matoran nouns have the same plural form as the singular, except in dialects like Treespeak and some anomolous instances such as sometimes saying Zamors, Kofo-Jagas, and 'korans', metrus, and koros (if my memory serves me correctly, though admittedly, it often doesn't). We can also just say it is unknown if these or any other seeming-inconsistancies are canonical, stylization choices for readers/viewers, or simply mistakes. Zamors and Protodites are the most prominent examples, so I think they probably warrent a note if nothing else does. Firespitter Lhii (talk) 17:42, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
Questions
Hi, guys. Here are these questions: 1. What says the Protodites were created by the Great Beings? 2. Do they naturally go as a swarm? Zaktan is a swarm, but he is one guy naturally. Lenny7092 (talk)