Talk:Powers

Just pointing it out, Hypnosis and Hypnotism are listed in separate sections of this page (one as a sub-power of psionics, the other as a miscellaneous power). Master Inika ^(Talk) 21:37, 7 January 2017 (CET)

powersnav

i wasn't sure how to get to the page for the powers nav box thingie, so i figured this would be as good a place as any - (how do you get to that page?) but why, under the other powers section, are there several makuta powers but not all of them? obviously listing all of them would make it too large, but why are the ones that are listed, listed? Intelligence4 (talk) 22:29, 10 June 2017 (CET)

to clarify, i'm talking about those listed under the other powers -> standard powers box. perhaps they aren't all specific to makuta, but they seem to be just a bunch of random powers, and i was wondering why those were listed as opposed to others in their place. Intelligence4 (talk) 22:31, 10 June 2017 (CET)

To access that page, go to Template:PowersNav. Those certain powers (Heat Vision, Laser Vision, Shapeshifting, Anger, and Disintegration, if I recall correctly) are listed because they are the powers that have pages on this wiki. The qualifications for that are pretty random, but generally, the powers that have several/many users have powers, and the other ones don't. --Angel Bob (talk) 08:01, 11 June 2017 (CET)

ah, i guess that would make sense. thanks for the page location, too :) Intelligence4 (talk)

Three Users Rule?

(I wasn't sure of a better place for this since this discusses multiple power pages.)

Across my time editing the wiki, I've heard references to a "three users rule" for creating pages for powers. From how I understand it, a page must have at least three users of the power in order to justify its existence. But how exactly do we define "user"? I assume it obviously requires someone to actually use the power in the story, not just possess it (although there are exceptions, namely many of the Secondary Elements), but other than that, it's pretty vague.

During the Heat Vision AFD nomination, Zox explained why Power Scream does not have a page:

"Only difference between these and Power Scream is that--I don't think--Power Scream never really got used by a named, major character who wasn't a Rahi and who stayed relevant to the story across a given year's arc, and when there was technically a character who had it in the given year (Teridax all the time) it wasn't really used by them afaik."

If a "user" is defined as a named, non-Rahi, major character, then the Acid page fails the three users rule because the only users are Lehvak and the Bahrag, unless Cahdok and Gahdok are considered separate users (this has relevance later on). On the other hand, if the Bahrag together are considered a single user, then the only way the page can be justified is to count Keelerak as a user. If Rahi count as users, then a page for Power Scream would be justified by Krahka, Klakk, and Kikanalo alone.

But also, Power Scream was used by named, non-Rahi, major characters: Teridax (as Maxilos),^[1] Bitil,^[2] Mutran,^[3] and Miserix.^[4] However, all of these examples are Makuta. So the question is: are all Makuta and Makuta derivatives (Kraata and Rahkshi) considered a single user, or are each Makuta considered separate users, like the Bahrag possibly are? If the Makuta species altogether is considered a single user, then Laser Vision (and possibly Heat Vision, since Tahu is simply a user of the Kraata power) fails the three users rule. Dag (talk) 22:26, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't think it's a hard-rule. With Power Scream, while they're similar powers, it's not really confirmed they are the same; the Rahi are never said to have Power Scream specifically. I usually would consider all users of a Kraata/Makuta power the same, however as mentioned, the vision powers then fail. I would consider Bahrag a similar case, they are just using the Bohrok powers, and likewise, the Rahi Nui using the Kanoka powers. However, Rahi I think are generally valid.

As for Acid, I think Acid, as well as Vacuum, are justified by the Bohrok placing them as something close to the elemental powers... ~ Wolk (talk) 23:36, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Powers VS Abilities

I think I'm going and try to reorganize this page, but the first major hurtle to tackle is defining what exactly is a power or an ability. The only time that I can recall this distinction being referenced in canon is with the Faxon. The page currently says "abilities are a specific manifestation of powers, wherein users take a naturally occurring trait and use it to perform a power," but worded this way it seems like a non-statement. Wouldn't many powers be considered abilities and vice versa? Wouldn't the Faxon be able to also copy abilities? Let's take a look at how Greg defined this dichotomy. It should also be noted that the Faxon has the additional limitation of not changing the user's actual physiology. The same goes for the Mask of Emulation [1]. In fact, it seems Greg draws the line of "ability" at being intrinsically tied to one's physical nature [2].

"What are the requirements for a Faxon? Does the user need to know about the Rahi or just have seen it? For example, could Hahli take on the powers of the Crystal Serpents?"

"She would have to know what power it is she wants to take. And the crystal serpent's ability isn't really a power, it's a natural tool that is a result of their crystalline structure. The mask is not going to change Hahli to crystal, it doesn't work that way." [3]

The Crystal Serpent's ability to produce heat rays is only because their crystalline structure focuses light into an intense beam, like a magnifying glass, so this can't be considered a power. I think this sets an interesting precedent. Can Lava Eels be said to actually have the power of Heat simply because of their intense body temperature? What about Spine Slugs and Anger? This also makes me want to consider traits of sentient species to be abilities as well (since Rahi are created by Makuta and can be given pretty much any power, the "traits = abilities" generalization doesn't apply for them). The only exceptions are when species were experimented on and gained new powers, like Ehlek's or the Skakdi. But others like Tobduk's anger or Brutaka's reaction to Antidermis are probably abilities.

However, this does get muddied a bit by Krahka.

"Could a Faxon wearer copy Krahka's shapeshifting ability?"

"I would say no, it's a natural ability, not a power." [4]

"Could a faxon user use Krahka's powers?"

"Within limits. The Faxon does not allow you to change your body's mass, so you couldn't change size the way Krahka can." [5]

"A Faxon wearer would be able to mimic Krahka's power, correct?"

"Depends on if her mimickry is a power or a natural ability" [6]

Or Spinax's tracking ability.

"So, then I assume you could use the Faxon to use Spinax's ability to track living things?"

"Probably, yes" [7]

And Greg has been somewhat contradictory in his phrasing, such as:

"Yes, Axonn has a stasis ability. He wasn't freezing time, he was freezing motion." [8]

Now, before there's any confusion, I want to reiterate and clarify what I mean by an ability being intrinsic to a being's physiology. You could say that a Toa's element is intrinsic, but since Toa come in many different elements, the physical nature of the Toa body can handle a wide variety of powers, so that's not what I mean. I simply mean that an ability naturally arises directly from some part of their physical nature, as most clearly demonstrated by the Crystal Serpents. From a surface level investigation, I think this makes the most sense, but more research needs to be done, namely whether there are any instances that would contradict this conclusion. Dag (talk) 22:26, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Just skimming through this, I would say, "ability" as just by Greg is not a formal, unambigious term. We should probably just the term "natural ability". This page definitely needs restructure though, I agree there. ~ Wolk (talk) 08:58, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

When I first wrote this, I would've agreed with you that Greg is somewhat loose with the term, but I've since realized that he may be more consistent with it after all. Other than his contradictions with Krahka (which is more about her nature than the term "ability" anyway), Spinax's tracking ability could actually be a power. While it's normal to think hounds have natural tracking abilities, the fact that Spinax's works across the entire MU could suggest it was designed or amplified to be a power by the HoA. And I had assumed Axonn's stasis ability was actually a power, but apparently it hasn't been confirmed whether it's a species trait, at least from what I could tell. The only thing I found was someone in CwGF asking if it was, and Greg just said it was unknown [1]. There are a couple times where he gives the electric eel as being an example of a power that the Faxon could copy, which, from a biological perspective, wouldn't make sense with the ability/power dichotomy, but since Greg isn't a biologist (and the concept of capital-p "Power" doesn't exist in the real world), that's not what Greg meant. I think all he meant was that not all eels are electric, so it's not something intrinsic to being an eel, thus it's a power. That probably doesn't make much sense either if you really dig into it, but I think it's the best we're gonna get. Dag (talk) 15:16, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Does something being a species trait inherently make it not a power, though? Whether Axonn's stasis ability is a species trait is entirely irrelevant, its not about why he got the ability, it's about how it functions. ~ Wolk (talk) 20:15, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Depends on how we define "ability". If an ability is a direct natural consequence of a being's physiology (like Crystal Serpents having heat rays simply because their bodies are crystalline), then that strongly suggests that at least some of the "powers" shared by an entire species are actually abilities (same physiology > same abilities). It's at least true in the example of Nocturn's regeneration. Greg calls it a natural ability of his species [1] and says the Faxon wouldn't work on it because it's not a power [2] (IDK why Greg didn't just say here that the Faxon doesn't work because he's not a Rahi, or why he says Hahli could use Ehlek's power). Now, Makuta/Kraata powers don't apply to this generalization either since they don't seem to be actual properties that arise from the Antidermis itself. The Melding Universe Makuta IIRC are the exact same, only they expelled their Shadow, and so their Kraata powers are different. Dag (talk) 21:42, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I think I've got it. A power is when it satisfies any one of these three:

1. Able to be copied by the Faxon [1][2], Mask of Emulation [3], or Vezok [4][5][6].

2. Lost, gained, or otherwise altered due to a change in inner light and shadow (Ex: changing one's element, Roodaka gaining shadow powers, the Melding Makuta powers being different).

3. Does not arise directly as a natural consequence of the user's physiology.

If it does not satisfy any of these, then it is an ability. I can't think of any exceptions, where an ability would be any of these three, or where a power would be none of them. Dag (talk) 02:31, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

2. also technically covers Rhotuka as well. The one thing that comes to mind here is objects, such as Kanoka. The Kanoka/Kanohi powers are definitely powers; with most objects, can it be assumed they are just 'technology' if not Kanoka-derived or explicitely "imbued with power" (Axonn's stasis zamor? SM elemental weapons? Don't if there's any proper examples of that.) There's also a lot of cases where we simply wouldn't be able to say one way or another... Also, how do we classify Mental Shielding, since that is more of a skill... For the Ce-Matoran, it may be a power though; it's kind of weird. ~ Wolk (talk) 14:18, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

I think Rhotuka themselves are a power, while the ability to create Rhotuka without the aid of an external launcher is, well, an ability. This is a distinction the Rhotuka page doesn't make clear:

"Almost all beings of the Matoran Universe have the ability to make Rhotuka, but cannot do so without the use of a Rhotuka Launcher with which to fire them."

So, almost all MU beings have the ability to make Rhotuka, but also don't? As for objects, the power/ability dichotomy only exists in the context of living beings. Ability implies action and agency, which objects don't have. I think if it only channels the power from a being (Rhotuka Launcher, Toa Tools, etc.), then then it's not a power, at least from the object itself. You do bring up a good point though about whether something is just a technology or actually a power. I don't recall if there are any powerful objects only referred to as technology inside the MU by MU inhabitants, but the first thing that came to my mind was Kabrua's device that turned off Toa power, or their explosive force blasters. I think to any SM native, they would see the entire MU as just technology, but to an MU being, they see it as a power. And I would say mental shielding is an ability since almost all beings can do it with enough training. Although the same could be said of Roodaka's shadow powers, that falls under point 2, while mental shielding does not. And again, to reiterate why Rhotuka themselves are a power even though all beings have Rhotuka (provided a launcher), the power itself is based on their individuality, so it's not the same for every being. Although it is the same across some Rahi species, they still are powers. Part of the reason, I think, Rhotuka are individual is because of one's inner light and shadow (as you also said, "2. also technically covers Rhotuka as well"), and because Rahi don't have inner light and shadow, it makes sense that they wouldn't have individualized powers. Dag (talk) 18:17, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

I would rephrase the first bullet point to mention Vezok's absorption power, and not Vezok himself. I also would change out the word 'characters' with 'beings' to be inclusive of wildlife. (And links to Characters and Objects need to distinguished as the G1 pages) ~ Wolk (talk) 19:30, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Reducing Lists and Linking to Other Pages

I'm tempted to just entirely remove some of these power lists, namely the ones that already have their own dedicated pages with these powers listed out there (Kraata, Kanoka, Kanohi, Rhotuka), and instead just have short generalized descriptions of them here with links to those dedicated pages, but I want to see how others feel about that before committing to it. Dag (talk) 17:33, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

I always thought that it doesn't really make sense to list them here, when we could just link the Rhotuka page, where they are already listed, so I agree with that.--SurelNuva (Talk) 17:53, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

I would actually prefer to keep the names for the powers here, if not descriptions of the powers. A big utility of the page is being able to see everything centrally laid out here, and even to ctrl-f for instances of one thing or another. An alternative solution, such as an index of powers, could also do the trick, but pending that, I would rather keep it, myself.

Not related to this, but more broadly, I'd like to also have a bunch of the Objects with powers (like Conjurer's or Tobduk's staffs) brought here, since the current list is pretty barebones, but that it may also be worth establishing some guidelines for what qualifies as an object with a "power." --Gonel (talk) 07:02, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Funny you should say index, cause that's pretty much my goal for this page. You do make a good point about being able to ctrl-f, but I think having the powers split up into a few pages still makes that easy enough. Regardless of whether we should put them back here or not, I would like to still leave them off for now until we get the formatting settled. I've been thinking of getting rid of the Rahi category and just putting them in with the Other Powers since sometimes that's a blurred line, and the same power appears multiple times in different lists. Also I've just been adding objects as I find them or think of them, so you're welcome to help add to it. Dag (talk) 16:27, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Vezon's powers

This one has bothered me for a while but I haven't touched it: Aren't Vezon's powers granted by the Ignika, and lost once he lost the Ignika? In other words, they are not Skakdi powers, they are just the Ignika's doing? (On a side note, we should probably also cover the tertiary abilities of the Piraka - heat resistance, cold resistance, the corrosion resistance Vezok has, and Reidak's immense strength/endurance, down the line.) ~ Wolk (talk) 22:01, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I noticed that when I was adding citations. My first thought was that the Ignika was somehow aware of the Skakdi's experimentation by Spiriah and their new powers, so it gave Vezon a vision power and a unique power. Although, Future Sight is not really a "vision" power, not like the others, so IDK. As for the tertiary abilities, are they powers or abilities? I think they would be analogous to Nocturn's immunity to pit mutagen (Vezok's especially), though they do seem to be related to their elemental powers. I've been asking myself the same question with regards to the Matoran traits. Dag (talk) 22:24, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I'd say abilities. I don't see any stipulation that mutations can't cause abilities -- My impression has been that those things are still per-character, not something every Skakdi of their element would have. As for the Matoran traits, it's weird. Helryx studied the Ce-Matoran to learn mental shielding, meaning mental shielding can be learnt of course. But Vultraz for instance loses his heat resistance and gains the ability to fire shadow bolts. ~ Wolk (talk) 22:55, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

On Vezon's powers, his future sight worked similarly to the vision power of the piraka afaik, like he didn't just get visions from it, he had to shoot beams out of his eyes to create an image that showed him the future. So the Ignika probably scanned his fractured mind and saw how Vezok had used his impact vision, to give Vezon a similar power. The kinectic absorption on him works similarly how Reidak's adaptation works too, so we could assume that the Ignika based it on that, like Reidak had to be hit/defeated to adapt against the attack, and Vezon had to be hit to absorb the energy to boost his own.--SurelNuva (Talk) 02:14, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Zamors

Would it be worth addressing Zamor Spheres on this page? We know two of them (Antidermis and EP) contain substances, but another two contain the powers of beings (Vezok's and Axonn's)... difficult to say how the remainder work, hmm. I suppose it could be mentioned that powers can be contained in them? ~ Wolk (talk) 17:00, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Irnakk too, I think. From what I can tell, the only ones that have powers not associated with a substance or the user are Gold (Hewkii), Yellow-Red (Jovan), and maybe Protodax. Also the Silver and Black ones, but the Zamor page doesn't list any users, so IDK if they were ever used in the story. It wouldn't hurt to have a section here about Zamors, but I don't think we need a list of all the powers. Dag (talk) 17:37, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

I think the black and silver zamors were described in the encyclopedia to justify the multi-colored zamor packs, so no users, but still canon.--SurelNuva (Talk) 18:24, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Flight as a power rather than ability

In the section for abilities, flight is listed, and we included several beings. However, flight as an ability would be possessed by all Rahi and Sapient Beings with wings. As a power, however, things like Nidhiki, Krekka, and the Rahkshi's flight seem to be powers, as they are beyond natural physiological abilities. I would also add that this would apply to Shore Turtles and Bohrok using Krana Vu. I don't know about Vahki, though, as while the fact that they are artificial doesn't limit all the other inhabitants of the Matoran Universe from flying, we do know that Vahki run completely on clockwork, gear, and sensors. I think these should be moved to the 'Powers' section, and if they are not already, then we should also change these on the respective pages. That being said, I am willing to hear people out on this. Firespitter Lhii (talk) 04:59, 3 December 2024 (UTC) Upon looking(which I recognize I should have done before editing, Flight is listed as a Power on all their respective pages. I will change these shortly, unless someone responds in that time. Firespitter Lhii (talk) 05:03, 3 December 2024 (UTC)