Talk:Garai

i think the listed pronunciation here is off too - based on the syllables, anyway. as is, you'd put a hard emphasis on the first vowel sound, when it really should be something like GAR-eye. Intelligence4 (talk) 22:24, 16 September 2017 (CET)

Official is official; we can't do much to change what's in print. -- Dorek _Talk 00:23, 17 September 2017 (CET)

Thank you Dorek! — Surel—Nuva _(Talk) 09:25, 17 September 2017 (CET)

yes, but as we've seen before, the beu's pronunciations have been wrong. not to mention, they're not always consistent. i think that damages the credibility enough.

besides, are we really going to rely on a print source for a pronunciation when we have an audio source? (i don't know if we do here, but there are plenty of other examples of that.) Intelligence4 (talk) 21:12, 17 September 2017 (CET)

Absorption

Currently, the page says that the Garai can either increase or decrease a target's gravitational pull, but none of the sources given indicate that that is all the Garai can do. Greg has said that it can also absorb gravity.1 However, he has also said that the elemental masks cannot absorb their respective element (see the Other Kanohi page). Do we leave both pages as they are now, or go with this absorption quote for both the Garai and elemental masks in general? Dag (talk) 22:55, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

What's more perplexing is that Toa of Gravity (and, as far as we know, all gravity-users) can't absorb gravity. It's a puzzling contradiction, but I don't think it's a problem, since the page itself doesn't say anything about absorption. -- Toa Jala ^Converse 04:53, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. I think the combination of Toa not being able to + the statement about EM adds up to a more consistent through-line... but idk. Out of all the elements, Gravity is such a mess. ~ Wolk (talk) 05:12, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Do you have a source that says Toa of Gravity can't absorb their element? The Gravity page doesn't. And yes, while this page doesn't flat out say the Garai can absorb Gravity, the quote is used to say it "can be used on their surroundings." If this quote should be ignored, then there is no longer a citation for that statement. Dag (talk) 16:31, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

There seems to be older statements than these, but I'm not able to find any; regardless these at least reconfirm it; https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2008-2010/page317#post12641-line2,17,19 https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2008-2010/page254#post10141-line14 https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2008-2010/page254#post10147 ~ Wolk (talk) 17:17, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

It's nice to see the absorption problem fixed, but I also just realized another contradiction (which I'll just add onto here since I don't think it needs a new and separate topic). The Garai is currently given as not being able to affect the user, but from the Elemental Masks section, it should give a Toa level control, and Toa of Gravity can affect their own gravity (see Gravity page). Dag (talk) 21:05, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

So two possible solutions I see here, a) Are Toa of Gravity using their power on themself, or are they using it on the area around them? See https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page304#post12151-line37,47 (Gravity Flight just doesn't make sense at all.) or b) it's a trait of the masks that hasn't been brought up. For one, we don't really know of other masks that also affect the user and do external things. Toa-level power doesn't necessairly mean they have the same width of powers, as evidenced with the absorption thing, assuming it is true. Another interesting notes--Would they have the "elemental sense" that Toa seems have? Probably not "Always Active," at least, but I assume it derives from the manipulation ability... hmm. ~ Wolk (talk) 00:27, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Style Guide

This is exacty wording from the Style Guide, to avoid any "lost in translation" stuff:

Hewkii wears the Kanohi Garai, the Mask of Gravity, which can make himself or others ligher or heavier for rapid ascend or descends. Hewkii's lack of skill in swimming is somewhat counterbalanced by his new mask power. But he still doesn't like the feeling of being afloat and prefers to stay fixed on the sea bottom without having to move or wander about.

~ Wolk (talk) 16:49, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Works on the user

I'm still don't think the Garai can affect the user. The only source that explicitly says it does (afaik) is the AMEET book, but what exactly is its canonical status? Was it written by Greg? Does it rank higher than Greg quotes? Second, I don't think the citation of BL7 Ch 7 is strong enough to cite as a source. The mask is not actually used at all, only Hewkii says it would be too slow, not that he can't lift himself up too. But, since he's only had the mask for a short time, and he hasn't been shown before to use or try to use it on himself, how would he know that he can't? Sure, it could imply that, but it's not concrete enough to use as a source imo. There's a similar case with the Komau and Kane-Ra in BA8:

"All right," said Pouks. "Half a dozen Kane-Ra between you and your goal, Onewa. What’s the plan?"

"That’s easy. I use my Kanohi Mask of Mind Control on the herd leader and make them stampede."

Pouks shook his head. "Masks don’t work for Hordika, carver. Try again."

Onewa's claim and Pouks' response could imply that the Komau can actually control Kane-Ra, but it too is not definitive. The reason that I cite that on the Komau page is 1) it's only in a note and 2) it's not the interpretation that the page sides with. The note is admitttedly worded rather concretely, suggesting that this passage actually shows that the Komau can control Kane-Ra, but I worded it that way because I originally included the LoMN game, which showed Pohatu actually controlling a Kane-Ra, but I took it off since it's technically non-canon. But with the Garai, we have two quotes from Greg explicitly stating it cannot be used on the user themselves. There is that one quote that Wolk linked to in the previous topic, but it says that the user can just absorb the gravity around them, when we know it can't absorb.

Now, there is still the issue of Greg's contradiction, saying that Toa of Gravity and Makuta can use their gravity powers to effectively fly [1][2]. Given that these don't directly contradict the Garai and are only tangential, I think the Garai page should still say it doesn't work on the user, but we have a note containing these contradictions. Dag (talk) 17:33, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

This is really easy. All official published material is superior to Greg quotes as usual. BL7 is a perfeclty valid source - Hewkii has already used Garai at least three times on screen at this point, including decreasing gravity for a shark, meaning he already had experience with both uses. In additiion to that, there are likely other unseen uses including the afformentioned swimming aid. We see other Mahri practice their masks off-screen in order to adapt to their new powers, so it is highly likely Hewkii did as well.

"It took some practice, but I finally know what this mask can do," she assured him. - Hahli BL7 p53 (spoken after only 1 on-screen use)

His few attempts at using using it before had convinced him its power was to summon creatures to Kongu's side. But so far, each thing summoned had been worse or more bizzare than the last. - Kongu BL p57 (spoken after only 1 on-screen use)

The exchange between Nuparu and Hewkii is quite explicit in that the suggestion is to make both of them lighter so that they rise above the trench. Hewkii's dialogue is very confident in his assesment of the speed, implying he might have even tried it already while Nuparu was asleep, just like the stones.

I'm not sure why you're explaining how Hewkii can't reasonably think he can't use it on himself when nobody implied that he thought such a thing in the first place. He obviously didn't - he said he could, but it wouldn't be fast enough to avoid the eels.

Because 100% of published sources say he can and does use it on himself, this means that the fraction of the Greg quotes which suggest he can't (because quotes are not even consistent in this denial), is in fact contradicting how the mask is portrayed in the story.--ToaKebaka (talk) 21:02, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

"All official published material is superior to Greg quotes as usual."

Per the Tiers, "Books, comics, and, more broadly, any officially published material written by Greg Farshtey." Cathy Hapka books, for example, are considered separate and rank lower. If the AMEET books are not written by Greg, it could be a similar exception. Greg's adamancy that it doesn't work on the user makes me think this might be an error on AMEET's part. Though the Style Guide also says Hewkii can use it on himself, we can't use it as a canon source since it was meant to be an internal document, and they may have changed the Garai since then.

"BL7 is a perfeclty valid source - Hewkii has already used Garai at least three times on screen at this point, including decreasing gravity for a shark, meaning he already had experience with both uses."

But not on himself, which is the question we're trying to answer. Using it on others has no bearing on whether he's tried to use it on himself.

"We see other Mahri practice their masks off-screen in order to adapt to their new powers, so it is highly likely Hewkii did as well."

Even if that is the case (and I agree with you that it likely is), that doesn't necessarily mean he practiced using it on himself. He could have, or could not have. We simply don't know.

"Hewkii's dialogue is very confident in his assesment of the speed, implying he might have even tried it already while Nuparu was asleep, just like the stones."

Again, I'm not saying it's not possible. What I'm saying is that we don't know, so we shouldn't explicitly say that the Greg quotes "contradict its portrayal in the story" when it just doesn't.

"I'm not sure why you're explaining how Hewkii can't reasonably think he can't use it on himself when nobody implied that he thought such a thing in the first place. He obviously didn't - he said he could, but it wouldn't be fast enough to avoid the eels."

No, what he said was:

"Okay, climbing is out," said the Toa of Earth. "What about your mask power?"

"We won't rise fast enough," said Hewkii.

He didn't say "I could use my mask power on us both, but we won't rise fast enough." He just said "we won't rise fast enough." He only gave one reason why Nuparu's suggestion wouldn't work, but that doesn't mean it was the only reason, regardless of if Hewkii knew whether or not he could use the Garai on himself. Again, just how BA8 doesn't necessarily mean the Komau can control Kane-Ra.

"Because 100% of published sources say he can and does use it on himself, this means that the fraction of the Greg quotes which suggest he can't (because quotes are not even consistent in this denial), is in fact contradicting how the mask is portrayed in the story."

What does "100%" even mean? BL7 is ambiguous, and at this point, we're not even certain who authored the AMEET books. This is not as easy of a topic as you make it seem, and the page should not dismiss one interpretation over another just because you think it's the only likely one, despite that the fact that it may still be wrong. Your addition to the note should stay off the page, and I'd like to hear what other people have to say, especially if anyone can find confirmation if Greg wrote the AMEET books or not. If Greg did write them, then yes, I would agree with you that we can confidently say the Garai works on the user. Dag (talk) 22:04, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

There is another Greg quote that states that the Garai can work on the user. Admittedly, it does ask about Toa/mask, but Greg's answer says "it", suggesting he's talking about the mask. (Also adds an interesting caveat to the ability). (Huh, and I just realized Dag also cited this quote in the Gravity talk page a few years ago)

As for whether Greg wrote the Ameet books, I found this, which suggests that he didn't, but he does suggest that stuff from the Ameet books is canon. It's not really a good answer, but it was the best I could find.

Given that that is the case, I think it could be said that the Garai can effect the user. Even if it wasn't written by Greg, it was written in published, canon material, and Greg probably just wasn't aware of it or forgot it. This is different from the Hapka novels, where Greg has actually stated that aspects of them are non-canon. As far as I can tell, he hasn't said that about the Ameet books.

Regarding the wording of the note: I do agree with Dag that it doesn't contradict how it is portrayed in the story, because Hewkii doesn't use it to float himself, and it's possible he doesn't even know whether he can. Even if we argue that he/Nuparu suggested it would work, Dag already pointed out a scene where Onewa suggests his mask power would work, but is then told it wouldn't because he's a Hordika. I think perhaps the note could be edited to show his quote contradicting this, and the citation from BL7 could be removed since it doesn't actually say whether he could do it. Other than that, though, I think the page is fine as it is.--Willess12 (talk) 01:16, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Good catch on that Garai quote, I forgot about it since I last visited this topic. However, I find it interesting in the context of BL7. If ToaKebaka is right, then BL7 suggests that Hewkii could've lifted both himself and Nuparu. But, that quote says it's either the user or a target, not both (also, how can it be "removing the gravity around you," while still being exclusive to you or another target? What if you're standing really close to each other?).

I'm still on the fence about relying so heavily on the AMEET book, given that it may not have been written by Greg and he twice contradicted it, but this third quote does make Greg's consistency less certain. Given that, I would be fine with leaving the page as siding with the AMEET book on this one, so long as the note leaves this alternate interpretation as equally possible. Dag (talk) 01:38, 16 June 2024 (UTC)