Talk:Ancient Sea Behemoth

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Mutation?

The Behemoth would have been mutated by the Pit Mutagen, no? What we saw in the comics would have been its mutated form, unless Greg stated otherwise (i.e., if it had an immunity to the mutagen). -- Toa Jala ^Converse 17:00, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

It was sleeping under the sea, buried under the floor, so I think the mutagen/radiation didn't effect him because of that. And Greg did say that "Despite living and breeding in mutagenic waters, Sea Squid are not immune to the mutagen. Pit Mutagen causes internal damage to their DNA which will not become apparent until generations to come" so maybe this is the case with the Ancient Sea Behemoth too. — Surel—Nuva _(Talk) 17:56, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Surel is right here probably. Greg hasn't given an answer on this but this monster is so big and ancient that it probably hasn't even been in contact with the area in years, if ever. If it only stayed in a few minutes, even (like the Mahri Matoran) it should be fine. Toa Nidhiki05 21:28, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Under Pit Mutagen#Trivia, it says that organic beings are affected less. Thanks for clearing that up. -- Toa Jala ^Converse 04:13, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Possibly a Rahi?

(This is mainly about the Zatth, but it hinges entirely on the Ancient Sea Behemoth.)

I admit this thread is small, but it's loose nonetheless. I can't help but at least consider the possibly that the Zatth can only work on Rahi, and thus that the Ancient Sea Behemoth may indeed be a Rahi. Most descriptions of the Zatth merely say "creatures," which is inherently vague. However, the "Toa Chamber" from Toa Terrain Crawler says it "allows the user to summon Rahi beasts to [Kongu's] aid." Explicit mention of Rahi and only Rahi. If the Zatth does work only on Rahi, this would be consistent with other mask limitations (Faxon, Komau, Healing, and possibly Tryna).

As for the ASB itself, while Greg did confirm outright that it is native to Spherus Magna, he also said that nothing organic other than the vampiric sea squids "plays any role in the story" for 2007 [1]. But this is difficult to reconcile with its description in BL7:

"When he finally righted himself, Kongu opened his eyes. The first thing he saw was a grotesque sea creature, easily two hundred feet high, looking like a cross between a whale and the giant, clawed slime-worms Onu-Matoran miners had run into in the past. It was nothing that had ever lumbered through the seas of Metru Nui or anywhere Matoran dwelled. The creature was ancient when the world was new, a relic of a past age when it was probably dwarfed by its fellow creatures. It had slumbered for millennia until awakened by Kongu’s Mask of Summoning… and it woke up in a bad mood."

Some parts of it, if you squint, could fit with it being a First Rahi, though the narration specifically says "it was nothing that had ever lumbered through the seas of Metru Nui." Is this narration from an omniscient third person, or is it from the perspective of Kongu (could be implied from the first sentence), who would not have known or remembered the First Rahi arriving to Metru Nui? If it is from Kongu's perspective, could this description have been an exaggeration on his part?

Regardless, it doesn't outright confirm explicitly the ASB to be native to Aqua Magna, and though it is heavily implied, is it enough to side against the "Toa Chamber," which only says Rahi? I don't know, maybe this doesn't change anything, but I thought it at least deserved mentioning. Dag (talk) 17:47, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

The Zatth also summoned Venom Eels too, which are also not Rahi. The Makuta's Guide only calls it "ancient sea beast."--SurelNuva (Talk) 18:53, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Venom Eels are disputed, see the note on their page. Dag (talk) 18:57, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, there are several instances listed on this wiki of minor errors on Bionicle.com, such as Fero being listed as a member of the Rock tribe, or Sahmad as a member of the jungle tribe, so I feel like anything there could be taken with a grain of salt, especially if it contradicts other stuff. It might be worth a note on the Zatth page, perhaps. As for the Greg quote saying that only the sea squids were organic, that quote is from 2006 -- he probably didn't have any plans for the ASB yet. --Willess12 (talk) 00:33, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

It's certainly possible, plus with the Tiers, website content would rank lower than books and such, but the problem here is that it doesn't explicitly contradict published material. The Toa Chamber's description of the Zatth would technically fit with the others, and the only thing confirming the ASB to be native to Aqua Magna is that Greg quote. And also, BL7 was completed by the time of that 2006 quote [2]. Maybe he just forgot about it, but I also wouldn't write it off so hastily. Dag (talk) 00:46, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

I almost feel compelled to make a argument for the opposite; from a quick scan, nothing in the books labels ANY of the creatures that Kongu ends up summoning as Rahi, so the lack of identification feels somewhat circumspect as well, especially given Greg's penchant to use it as an alternative descriptor otherwise. Obviously it's way more logical that a Kanohi would have an effect on Rahi, but it's still interesting lol. -- Dorek _Talk 02:51, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't think the Zatth being stated to work on Rahi necessarily contradicts that it works on Creatures too -- it's not taking a firm stance of "only Rahi" just because it chose to mention Rahi, so I don't think there's a contradiction either way. As for the ASB is a Rahi or Creature -- the book also doesn't seem to specify. Unless Greg has actually confirmed one way or another, perhaps we should address this uncertainty in a note? ~ Wolk (talk) 07:25, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree about the Zatth, which is why I didn't say it was a contradiction. I do, however, think that mentioning Rahi only, when, as Dorek pointed out, none of the creatures Kongu uses the mask on were explicitly said to be Rahi is very interesting. Sure, they could very well actually be Creatures, but the books just don't say definitively either way. Compounding that with Greg's statement of nothing organic besides the squids would play any story role, I think there is a decent enough case to be made for it. At the very least, it should be a note on the Zatth page. For the ASB, Greg did confirm that it wasn't a Rahi (which is the quote currently cited on the page), but he contradicts his earlier 2006 quote. I'm fine leaving the page as it currently is, but this deserves a note as well. I can work on both later today. Dag (talk) 15:09, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Related to the Faxon, is there any confirmation that Faxon can only copy Rahi powers? It doesn't seem like the page identifies creatures, and there's an instance where Kongu summons some (what we are currently presuming to be) Creatures which Hahli then copies. Obviously it's not then definitive that the Zatth only summons Rahi, but it could be further evidence that Kongu summons things that are in fact Rahi but dont get explicitly identified as such, if we reclassify those bioluminscent things as Rahi. -- Dorek _Talk 18:52, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

A CwGF quote says the Faxon can only copy Rahi powers, which is cited on the Faxon page already. I double checked the chapter, but it doesn't specifically call them Rahi. Dag (talk) 18:59, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

About the Toa Chamber only saying the Zatth can summon Rahi, I decided to look through the two Mahri AMEET books. They have some interesting wording as well for several masks (I don't know Polish, so the quotes I'll use here will be from Google Translate. I know it's not always accurate, but these seem decent enough).

Faxon

BEU - "This mask allows the wearer to simulate the powers of creatures who share the same environment."

MGttU - "Hahli wore the Kanohi Faxon, the Mask of Kindred, which allowed her to duplicate the powers of sea creatures."

TTC - "allows the user to duplicate the powers of Rahi beasts that share the same environment (for example, Hahli can use the powers of different sea creatures)"

Mahri I - "Kanohi Faxon - Mask of Kinship - allows Hahli to take on the power of other aquatic creatures."

Mahri II - "Thanks to the Mask of Kinship, she can also absorb the energy of other water creatures when she needs more power."

Tryna

BEU - "This mask allows the wearer to fill the shells of deceased beings with artificial life energy."

MGttU - "Matoro wore the Kanohi Tryna, the Mask of Reanimation, which could bring back the dead to a semblance of life."

TTC - "allows the user to bestow artificial life on the bodies of the dead and make them serve them."

Mahri I - "Matoro's mask is Kanohi Tryna, the Mask of Revival. Its power allows Matoro to fill the shells of dead underwater Rahi with a form of energy that simulates life."

Mahri II - "The Mask of Revival that he wears has the power to fill the shells of dead Rahi with energy that simulates life."

Zatth

BEU - "This mask allows the wearer to call creatures to his aid, but does not provide the ability to choose which creatures."

MGttU - "Kongu wore the Kanohi Zatth, the Mask of Summoning, which could bring forth sea creatures to aid him."

TTC - "allows the user to summon Rahi beasts to his aid."

Mahri I - "Kongu wears the Kanohi Zatth, the Mask of Summoning, and can summon various beings for help. Unfortunately, Kongu has no influence on who will show up when he calls."

Mahri II - "Thanks to the power of his Kanohi Zatth, Kongu can summon various creatures for help. Unfortunately, he has no control over who or what will come to his call."

What I find interesting is that there's two wording styles. One is that the masks' powers are oriented towards the Toa Mahri who wore them specifically. This is why MGttU and the AMEET books only specify sea creatures for the Faxon and Zatth, even though we know they're not limited only to sea creatures. That's just how Hahli and Kongu used their maks. The same goes for the AMEET books only mentioning underwater Rahi for the Tryna (although, this could be evidence that most if not all of the creatures Matoro brought back to life were Rahi). This wording is obviously non-exhaustive. The other wording, however, is more generalized, saying "the wearer/user," as used in the BEU and TTC. These, I think, are exhaustive. For example, the TTC only mentions Rahi for the Faxon when we also happen to have a Greg quote that limits the Faxon to Rahi only. If this is the case, then TTC can be used as a source to say the Zatth is limited to Rahi, and thus that the Ancient Sea Behemoth is also a Rahi. My only hesitation at this point is still BL7's description of the ASB. Dag (talk) 20:36, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Either way, I think it's deserving of notes. Apparently I asked Greg about this back in 2016 and got now answer :c https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2013-2017/page864#post14292711-line12 ~ Wolk (talk) 23:56, 24 May 2024 (UTC)