Talk:Toa/Other Toa
Shouldn't Nidhiki be on the list of transformed toa, or is it just me? --ToaJuaraevo01 (talk) 10:25, 4 September 2013 (PDT)
- Technically not, since he's a part of the Toa Mangai. -- I AM THE DOREK do not truffle with me 11:34, 4 September 2013 (PDT)
- What difference does that make? He's still a Toa. --ToaJuaraevo01 (talk) 08:24, 5 September 2013 (PDT)
- Yes, but the specific point of the page is to detail Toa outside of known teams, as it says in the opening line. Nidhiki is part of a known team, thus, is not on this page. -- I AM THE DOREK do not truffle with me 11:15, 5 September 2013 (PDT)
- Oh, DUH. Sorry, n00b moment. --ToaJuaraevo01 (talk) 11:31, 9 September 2013 (PDT)
Toa Names?
Greg recently said that Tiro Canyon, the Motara Desert, and other Mata Nui locales were "likely" named after Toa, though not necessarily Toa Mangai. (Greg being Greg, a "likely" translates to "I don't think this is important enough for a strict yes/no, but yeah, sure".) I'm not quite sure what to do with that information, though. Thoughts? --Angel Bob (talk) 03:38, 29 August 2014 (CEST)
citations
Surel, i was looking at the edit diffs for the last couple edits you made - you added something about an official greg discussion from 2006 as a source for the end of the intro paragraph of jovan's team, but it's not showing up when i look at the actual page, not in markup. is it deliberately hidden, and if so why is that? Intelligence4 (talk) 20:29, 23 January 2017 (CET)
- The "Official Greg Discussion" things are cited like this, see Helryx or the Fire Entity pages. You can find the first edit like this on Talk:Burnak and this Burnak page edit. --Surel—Nuva (Talk) 21:28, 23 January 2017 (CET)
- It's hidden because we don't have a way of citing the pre-FF OGD stuff yet. --OnionShark 21:44, 23 January 2017 (CET)
- wouldn't it just be a matter of creating a template for it? are there links for that source? Intelligence4 (talk) 17:48, 25 January 2017 (CET)
- The original topics were deleted in BZP's server crash, but we have a download of the transcripts here. --OnionShark 17:59, 25 January 2017 (CET)
Lhikan's army
According to the Birth of a Dark Hunter, Lhikan marched into the Canyon with 100 Toa, including himself and Nidhiki. Then Lariska, Hakann, and the Dark Hunters surrounded them. Then Lhikan made his signal, and another three hundred (who all had arrived at the pervious night, as the book clarifies it) surrounded the Dark Hunters according to the BL4 page 75. It's 400.--Surel (Talk) 08:57, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
Spinner was on Dume's team
I have been thinking about this a lot and looking into where the evidence leads. So the page currently has Jovan's, Dume's and Spinner's toa teams as three separate groups, but I believe that is not representative of the answers provided.
This quote is miscited on the page - the note says it's ambiguous, but the way it's presented is misleading to the reader. The answer this quote provides is in fact binary - asker provides two unambiguous options, and only two. Greg then simply says yes, confirming he was on one of those teams. The only ambiguous part is which of the two Toa teams was DH known as Spinner originally on? The notion he was part of another third team is impossible in light of this answer. I have gathered data on this topic and I believe we can say with strong enough confidence that it was Dume's. Let's see.
Starting with Spinner's DH book entry: "Sometimes the most fertile ground for recruiting Dark Hunters is among our enemies, the Toa. Nidhiki was not the only, or even the first Toa, to join my organization, although he was more reluctant than most."
This makes it clear that Spinner became a DH before Nidhiki, and it seems to imply that Spinner was in fact the first Toa to do so. Next passage is also telling: "A member of a contentious team of Toa, locked in battle with mutated Rahkshi, Spinner was hurled into a near-bottomless pit during the fight."
A contentious team of Toa - any Toa team that had Dume on it had to have been contentious, given what we know about him, and Jovan's group never had any such indications, in any mentions of them. Battle with mutated Rahkshi - we have no evidence that Jovan's team encountered Rahkshi, but we do know Dume did as a Toa.
Chronologically it is very unlikely to be Jovan's team, because it formed 80 000 years ago, which is the same time LOSK was rebelling against the Great Spirit and we know DH were not even formed at that point. The earliest known mission of DH is in fact attacking Jovan's team as they were returning from their own mission to undo Great Disruption, where they killed the Olmak wearer. It seems a stretch to say that DH would have had the time or even interest to recruit a Toa so early after their establishment.
We know all of the members of Jovan's team aside from Olmak and Ignika users became Turaga, so there is no room for Spinner:
This fact is reiterated in BIONICLE: Toa Mistika book - a published source.
Prior to their Ignika quest, Jovan's team guarded a particular region, whilst Dume's team was known to travel:
4. Did Jovan's Team guard a region before or after they used the Mask of Life? 4) Before.
I think a conclusion can be made. Some of the evidence only shifts the probability, but some is pretty clear cut, and I think if we take all of the available data, it seems quite evident that Spinner was a part of Dume's old team.--ToaKebaka (talk) 00:17, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
- I think there is a bit of context missing here. The initial quote is asked in relation to the Stasis Toa Contest (the one with Varian). The user is asking if it would be alright for them to use Spinner, Jovan, or Dume on the same team in their story. These sort of hypotheticals were frequent in 2010. It's not a canonization. ~ Wolk (talk) 00:38, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
- True... Maybe we should contest that one too? And yeah, people had started asking about it a few days before this: https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2008-2010/page296#post11839 ~ Wolk (talk) 01:13, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
- I guess we should remove the other information about the contest question, since ultimately it didn't won the contest, so the story that would have involved the information didn't become canon. I'm also questioning Chiara's mask too, since Greg only said Stealth, because it was for a Lesovikk Hiatus Contest entry, and LewaLew didn't want to avoid mentioning her mask or mask power throughout the story, but it didn't win either...--SurelNuva (Talk) 10:07, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think removing Chiara's mask or Sea Sled's flight is warranted - the Hiatus contest might have been the reason for question being asked, but Greg did make a general decision on that information, so that contestants can reference it. Also considering her backstory of sneaking into Vsiorak camp, I can see why Greg chose Volitak. Going back to Spinner, I am still not 100% convinced it was tied to the Stasis Toa contest. The other questions usually specify they are asking for the purposes of the contest, but this one does not, and I have certainly seen unrelated questions being asked in a way "Is it okay if...".--ToaKebaka (talk) 15:21, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
Toa Ignika or Toa Mata Nui?
I know that they aren't exactly traditional Toa, but shouldn't we at least include these two on here, at the very least in a mention? They are Toa bodies, more or less, and while not a totally exact match, we use that logic for Velika, and they called themselves and acted as Toa. They didn't have the typical biology, but Toa in general don't all have the same biology, notably the Toa Mata/Toa Nuva. I do understand that why they wouldn't recieve all the same treatments as other Toa, but they definitely warrent mention. I want to make sure we are all on board, though, and I don't know what the best way of going about this would necessarily be. Firespitter Lhii (talk) 16:39, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
- Velika is a Toa body with a different mind transferred into it, where as Ignika and Mata Nui are imitations of a Toa, so I wouldn't say that they're the same. They definitely warrent mention, though; with citations. Not 100% sure if Greg said Mata Nui's body was based on a Toa or a Glatorian, but if the latter, then that should be mentioned on the Glatorian page, and Mata Nui should still be mentioned for his use of the "Toa" title, and his applying it to others like Ackar. ~ Wolk (talk) 17:22, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
- As to Mata Nui, Greg said both on various occassions, but I would point out that TLR heavily implies Toa - when Kiina learns who Mata Nui is she circles around him checking him out saying: "Wow. A real other-worlder!" She woukldn't be so impressed if Mata Nui was just another Glatorian.--ToaKebaka (talk) 18:44, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
- Velika is a completely different thing. He is a matoran, as it was a blank matoran body before it got its own conscience, that's why the GB could rewrite it with his conscience. Toa Ignika's body was made to resemble a Toa, albeit transformed from swamp material, but as biologically correct as Toa Matoro's. Mata Nui was said to be a Toa body sometimes, as that's what the Ignika was familiar with, other times it was said that it's a glatorian body, as it was made to blend in with the locals (primary organic and not bio-mechanical) iirc.--SurelNuva (Talk) 19:17, 10 April 2024 (UTC)