Talk:Elements (Generation 1)
Once the Elemental prefix polls on BZPower are done are we going to update our prefixes and preferred regions and all that which I just said and such?--Toa Wolf 07:50, 20 November 2012 (PST)
Reboot
Can somebody link this page with [Elemental Powers (Generation 2)]? Toa Green Ninja - Bearer of the Mask of Spinjitzu (talk) 21:29, 15 October 2014 (CEST)
Creature Creation
Shouldn’t the ability to create elemental creatures be added. The combination of stone and fire is not the only example even though it can be assumed that a Toa of fire can do it since the only difference between Skakdi elemental powers and Toa is the Skakdi needs assistance or tools otherwise they should be identical. Plus it is more than just a puppet being controlled by Hakkan since it howled in pain. The mutated Lohrak had enough elemental power of sonic to create a entity made of it. It is probably a advance use of elemental powers. I am sure other characters besides the previously mentioned could achieve such feats. A hypothetical example is Miserix making a snake like dragon out of shadows. Makuta make tendrils, shells, armor, and hands out of shadow so I think it should be possible to make creatures out of it. Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 07:29, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Introduction year/dates of secondary elements
Something I've noticed is very much missing is when each of the secondary elements. From what I've been able to puzzle together, gravity and sonics were in 2005 (Time Trap, and Krakua, respectively), plasma, the green and magnetism in 2006 (Legends 1, 4, and Jovan), lightning in 2007 (Nikila), iron in 2008? (Nynrah ghosts), and psionics in 2009? (fan vote?). Does anyone know better/have sources regarding this, such as the decision to canonize Psionics since that does not appear to have been done through a character? ~ Wolk (talk) 13:43, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- That all sounds right to me, except it looks like Psionics was canonized through a PM with Greg. Here's the relevant message. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 17:51, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
Some extra elements the Makuta and kraata would fall under.
Since weather control kraata have the power to create rain storms and blizzards do they have limited water and ice elemental powers? I would also like to ask if the kraata of heat vision’s power would actually fall under the sub element of heat since the heat vision kraata description describes they can manipulate heat with more than just their eyes. In addition I would also like to ask about fire resistance and ice resistance since it seems these powers involve self temperature change and would fall under the heat sub element. One last thing and I know this is a odd one does laser vision fall under the element of light since that power besides just producing lasers can also produce bright flashes of light and even none-harmful amounts of light?(The preceding unsigned comment was made by Makuta of Mata Nui)
- Ok, let's start with Heat Vision - I'd say yes, as the Heat page mentions: "Releasing heat through eyebeams." under examples. It's releasing heat, just through a different method of channeling it. This would then also apply to Laser Vision (as Toa of Light can create lasers) I suppose, and Ice Vision seen in one of the First Rahi. However, they'd also still be subpowers of their own, I'd say. An argument can be made that it's not a subpower because a Toa of Fire or Light couldn't do it - but a Toa of Sonics can not use Power Scream, which I think is a very similar case (channeling the power through your mouth vs. eyes vs. through your hands?/tools).
- Weather Control - Weather powers can be accomplished by Toa of Water and Air working *together*, Toa of Ice can create and stop blizzards, and possibly also contribute to the weather thing. (https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2008-2010/page56#post2209-line32), so it's less so a sub-power, and more a combination of elemental powers.
- As for the resistances they're a bit tricky. Ice Resistance raises the temperature, and fire resistance lowers it, but for fire/ice users (who have heat/cold resistance instead) it works differently. Ice users are resistant to cold and weak to heat, and fire users are resistant to heat and weat to cold. I lean towards keeping them seperate. ~ Wolk (talk) 22:08, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
There are some examples of an elemental ability being exclusive so even if a toa of that element can not use that power it can still be a elemental power such as Umbra’s light transformation and the shadow matoran’s powers when linked. Makuta of Mata Nui (talk)
- Right, and I think that's the case for the vision powers, but we already have resistances for ice and fire (Heat and Cold Resistance respectively) which function in the opposite. To me it also raises the question of, ice resistance would be more specifically a heat sub-power rather than pure fire, and likewise for fire resistance being cold rather than ice - but we don't have a page for Cold like we have for Heat, so there will be a disymmetry there. I think it will become confusing, but that is not to say we can't do it. ~ Wolk (talk) 08:06, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
I still believe weather control kraata and the Makuta should be listed under water, air, ice and lightning elemental powers pages. They do manipulate those elements and not all of those abilities are exclusive to them such as a toa of ice making a blizzard or a toa of air blasting opponents with wind. Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 00:25, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
I still think kraata of heat vision and the Makuta should be listed on the heat page and not just on heat vision since they can manifest heat in more than one way through eye beams or touch which is more applications than some of the other users on that page.
Another thing I would like to bring up is why weather control kraata and Makuta should be listed on the pages of water, ice, air, and lightning. While weather control is a combination of elements that two types of toa can make, the kraata version does not have to be. The weather control kraata power is not a combination of powers but a power that accesses multiple elements. The toa combination has to include all the elements of the participants to achieve while the kraata power does not have to do that. If they just want to make a blizzard with no other element in it they can, if they want to create a gust of air they can as well without any other element being involved. This is why weather control should be in those pages since it is able to individually control parts of those elements even if the applications are limited they are powers that manipulate those elements.
Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 09:35, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
- In regards to Heat Vis. I'm actually considering if it should be merged into the Heat page... Might make an AfD on it. ~ Wolk (talk) 12:20, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
I just remembered if Guardian has a rhotuka that has power over earth and stone even though it is a single power that can influence multiple elements and he is listed in both of those pages then why are users of the kraata weather control power excluded from elemental pages? Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 08:26, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
- I'm unsure how to interpret Guardian's spinner. Is it doing two things at once, is it supposed to be two seperate spinner powers? Is it creating earth and stone, is it giving him the ability to animate earth and stone? I'm not sure.
- "His spinners contain powers tied to stone and earth."
- As for weather control, I see it as this - it is the combination of water and air, but it does not directly fall under those elements, like how lava or glass are not a sub-powers of fire. ~ Wolk (talk) 16:21, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
Well technically it should fall under water, air, ice, and electricity. Unlike Guardian’s rhotuka we have seen this power in action. For example I believe at one point a Rahkshi was using it to create a blizzard and only a blizzard just ice like a toa of ice would. Also Spirah used weather control to guide the boat he was on in Federation of Fear using just the wind aspect without the other more visible aspects like lightning, hail, or rain. Unlike the lava and glass example users of the kraata weather control power can only display a single element if they wish to while it may be something that multiple toa can create together the kraata version can use the elements separately if the Makuta just want to create a blizzard they can create a blizzard it does not always have to be a combination of elements when they use it. Which is why it should be listed on the four element pages I mentioned at the beginning of this paragraph. Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 18:51, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
Protodermis vs. Non-Protodermis Elements
"Toa produce the protodermis version of an element when they use their power to create it. On the other hand, Glatorian with elemental powers create the regular, non-protodermis version."
— Farshtey Feed, 210-06-04
I think this is relevant information that should be included on this page, but I'm now sure where to put it. Should it go under Trivia, or Traits and Characteristics? -- Toa Jala Converse 21:51, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
Traits and Characteristics. It should probably be mentioned the Element Lords as well make non-protodermic, and that regardless both can control and absorb either, such as Gali using water on Aqua Magna. This also isn't applicable for some elements, like forces naturally, but also air... ~ Wolk (talk) 06:47, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
- https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2008-2010/page314#post12537-line19-21,38,41 Ooor element lords cannot control protodermis, but Greg doesn't rule out the possibility of them learning to. ~ Wolk (talk) 06:50, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
Shadows or Light?
When Melding Universe Teridax killed plants by absorbing light to create darkness where would this be classified under? Because even if it is a user of light doing it, the effects is similar to what happened to the Karzahni plant by Main Universe Teridax.
Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 01:03, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
- That would still be light. Even though the Melding Teridax doesn't have the power of shadow, he can create darkness by absorbing light, similarly to how Vakama froze the Fire Entity by absorbing heat from the room. Vakama can cause ice to form in the right environment, but he can't control it. Same with light-users and darkness. -- Toa Jala Converse 04:15, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
Common Applications
Should the ability to channel elements through objects be added along with the ability for elemental users to sense their elements? To be specific I mean added to all the different element pages since I am pretty sure these two applications apply towards all to them. Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 12:57, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
- Channeling through an object I think is something that more-so belongs on the main elements page. Sensing their element however, definitely should be added. Do you have any leads on sources for them being able to do so? ~ Wolk (talk) 14:07, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
Would Gali knowing from what distance she was gathering water for a nova blast count? Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 22:23, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
Light and Gravity
I found a quote involving light and gravity that I am not sure should be added and if so under which element? https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page183#post7293 it is the second question involving Umbra although it still can apply to the element of light. Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 22:46, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
Absorbing
I think the "absorbing to recharge" and "rapid absorption" are two different things. I agree that Toa cannot rapidly absorb their element to then use it. However, absorbing their element to recharge it is something that is directly demonstrated in the Mask of Light movie, when Gali is at the river. This is evidently a much slower process. The book describes it like this:
- Gali was kneeling beside a jungle pond. She held her hands beneath the water, taking energy from it. Kopaka stood behind her, watching.
- “Kopaka,” Gali said with a sigh as she felt herself recharged. “Do you think the Turaga were right about us? Have we lost our unity?” She paused, gazing down at the still water. When the Ice Toa didn’t answer, she turned her head. “Kopaka?”
It is also conveyed through VFX, such as the water glowing, and Gali regaining her color. ~ Wolk (talk) 15:45, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
- Good catch, I forgot about this. However, I am hesitant, since there was some question about whether it's from Elemental Water or Toa Power (our discussion from a while back). It's been a while since I looked into that issue, and I haven't seen anything about Toa being able to recharge their Toa Power, so idk. If you want to change the page back and cite MoL (making clear the distinction between that and rapid absorption), I think that would be fine for now. Dag (talk) 15:57, 30 November 2024 (UTC)