Talk:Toa Hagah (Teridax)

Matoran Kanohi

I don't know if you guys are aware, but...

I was sure that the Toa Hagah didn't wear the same masks before they became Teridax's bodyguards, and I think in 2005 or 2006 it was confirmed that they had different masks. So I was right before one of the fans got Greg to canonize that the Hagah wore the same masks :D -- Surel-Nuva (Talk) 21:32, 27 September 2016 (CET)

Yep :P! Like was said in the guy's question, it wouldn't make sense they have the same mask. Hopefully their pages will get fixed soon :P.

~~Chalk33

I'm not sure this quote is valid, since it suffers from the very problem Greg expose in its answer: only a partial context is given. What was given to the Toa Hagah upon their nomination were metal-colored Kanohi in precious materials (and armor) - for some of them shaped like different Kanohi to honor heroes from the past (Norik's Pehkui) - not standard Kanohi. This just implied they had the same Kanohi (non-metal, non-precious) before their nomination. --maxim21 17:57, 28 September 2016 (CET)

Why would they get the same masks in different forms? -- Surel-Nuva (Talk) 18:19, 28 September 2016 (CET)

To honor past heroes. It's what's written under the "Recruitement" section, maybe it's not clear enough, though? --maxim21 18:49, 28 September 2016 (CET)

Actually that raises a good question. The article says all the Hagah's masks honored past heroes, but when was that confirmed? I know for sure Norik's did, but I don't know about Iruini or the others. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 04:32, 29 September 2016 (CET)

It's probably not the first, but here's a Greg quote from the old OGD, published Mar 25 2005, 12:07 AM by Planetperson that confirms it:

7. The Toa Hagah's Kanohi/armor honor past heroes, not neccessarily Toa, correct?

7) Correct, and it is only the masks that honor them, not the armor.

--maxim21 06:28, 29 September 2016 (CET)

Well, how about someone just go ask Greg, and give him full context.

~~Chalk33

Interesting that the person specified "past heroes", I don't think I ever picked up on that nuance. Anyway, Greg's more recent answer linked above makes it pretty clear; why would the Toa receive new masks of old powers? Everything seems pretty clear; they all got brand new masks. -- Dorek _Talk external image 19:29, 29 September 2016 (CET)

Because it was stated six years ago on the OGD when ankyfdarkness asked it, the 4th of august 2010 at 06:46 PM :

1: Before the Toa Hagah became Teridax’s guard were their mask powers the same as they are now?

1) Yes

Du7734 15:32, 20 October 2016 (CET)

Originally, the first answer was that their new masks were given to them by their former Teams. But I wouldn't argue with the Web of Shadows' Appendix which says that the Toa Hagah's masks were created by Matoran, who were enslaved by the Brotherhood, and that was 11 years ago, not just six. Then came the day the light of truth drawned, and the Toa were confronted by a horrible reality. Makuta, and the Brotherhood to which he belonged, were not protecting Matoran. They were opressing and enslaving them. Even the very masks Norik and the others wore had been forged by Matoran working under threat of punishment --- or worse. -- Surel-Nuva (Talk) 15:47, 20 October 2016 (CET)

But this information from the Web of Shadows's Appendix is completely different (but complementary) from(/with) the information brought by the Q/A that I've mentionned. So I don't get your point.

And actually, the fact that the Hagah's masks could have been manufactured by enslaved Matoran AND then given to the Hagah's teammates to be offered to Norik&Co is entirely possible.

Du7734 11:46, 21 October 2016 (CET)

You didn't understand, the WoS' Appendix was the first "answer", and it was 11 years ago, not just 6, so the fans' things are contradicting not the official information from the book. -- Surel-Nuva (Talk) 14:30, 21 October 2016 (CET)

The Q&A is not contradicting anything. As Du7734 said, the Hagah's masks might still have been made by enslaved Matoran and gifted to them by their teammates.

~ OnionShark

Split Toa Hagah into two subpages

Alright, I've been thinking. There are two groups(?) known as Toa Hagah, the Toa Hagah as Makuta bodyguards and -- the most known ones -- Makuta Teridax's Toa Hagah. This makes it a bit confusing in the page itself. To better distinguish between the two, I'd suggest make another page about the Toa Hagah, maybe called "Teridax's Toa Hagah", the negative about this it that it'll make the main Toa Hagah page rather small. --- Creep

Or the other page could be called "Toa Hagah/Teridax's"? -- Surel-Nuva (Talk) 21:38, 12 November 2016 (CET)

Also, can't we do the same thing with the Toa Hordika page? We have Savage, who's a Toa Hordika but not the part of the team. So shouldn't we separate the page into "Toa Hordika" and "Toa Hordika/Metru", or "Metru Toa Hordika", or "Toa Metru Hordika"? -- Surel-Nuva (Talk) 19:04, 13 November 2016 (CET)

I don't think we should bother separating them; i think anyone reading the pages can gather what they're about easily enough. 00:08, 14 November 2016 (CET)

I would be in full support of seperating both Toa Hagah and Toa Hordika. Is it alright if I create 2 entries for these on the "Articles for Creation"? I feel like it will not win the vote, but I figure we should raise the concern. Firespitter Lhii (talk) 21:13, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Good point about Toa Hordika; I think that could be more generalized as a "Hordika" page, covering things like the Muaka Hordika -- however, at that point, isn't Hordika Venom enough? AfC seems appropriate though. I'd personally be in favor of at least a restructure of this page. I'll see if I can make a sandbox for this... ~ Wolk (talk) 22:47, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Spiriah?

Surel removed him from the list of makuta that had toa hagah, but then onionshark readded him, totalling the number of hagah teams at 7 again. so... did spiriah have hagah or not? Intelligence4 (talk) 22:12, 26 February 2017 (CET)

See here. ~OnionShark 22:18, 26 February 2017 (CET)

In response to this post, that's right, we don't know, and that's why there's no reason to assume that Spiriah didn't have a team. Case closed (hopefully). ;) ~OnionShark 22:23, 26 February 2017 (CET)

'Till we got the answer. -- Surel—Nuva (Talk) 22:27, 26 February 2017 (CET)

to be honest, i'm still confused about the whole timeline thing - but imo that was just a flaw of bionicle generally (lots of events seemed to happen towards the beginning, and lots towards the end, but not a whole lot in the middle to connect them.) anyway, i guess we'll just wait for greg to clarify, and hope he does it within the next two days haha. Intelligence4 (talk) 23:32, 26 February 2017 (CET)

There's not really a problem with the timeline – yes, Terry's team must have been made 7,000 years ago or less, but don't assume that all Toa Hagah teams were formed at the same time. And I don't think Greg is gonna give an answer that he knows is gonna contradict preestablished canon. ~OnionShark 00:11, 27 February 2017 (CET)

Case closed.(for real this time) ~OnionShark 19:11, 27 February 2017 (CET)

I edited the pages. I'll add the '05 & TMC RefSquares to the date, for the Web of Shadows is the first source which mentions the creation of the Toa Hagah, and the TMC says that the Toa Hagah was employed by the BoM before the Raid on Artakha. -- Surel—Nuva (Talk) 20:04, 27 February 2017 (CET)

I almost don't want to dig this up again, but idk if this little piece of info will affect the debate that was going on here a while ago about the timing of spirah's hagah team: according to this link, spiriah's hagah were assigned to other duties after he was exiled. Intelligence4 (talk) 22:41, 3 May 2017 (CET)

We already resolved that debate, maybe you're talking about that debate going on on SN's talk page? ~OnionShark 10:26, 6 May 2017 (CET)

/shruggie Intelligence4 (talk) 22:55, 7 May 2017 (CET)

Gold And Silver Armor

I know this won't amount to anything substantial, but I feel it should at least be acknowledged and discussed, especially if anyone else happens upon this and asks these same questions. A Greg quote was brought up in the TGA discord server:

I just found this,

I just got new info from Greg on this.

Toa Norik's group of Toa was extremely elite. Thus, they have gold and silver armor, and wear masks which honor past Toa.

It looks right, but I couldn't find a quote. Can you confirm this?

Yes, it is true

The plain reading of this answer seems to say that all members of Norik's team had either gold or silver armor, which obviously conflicts with the results of the TTV contest. I then found another Greg quote:

I heard a member say that you told him the Toa Rahaga had gold and silver armor because they were especially elite, and that their masks honored previous Toa.Is this true?If so, does this mean Lhikan was also especially elite?

First, what I thought I said was previous heroes, not previous Toa. And no, while Lhikan had a yellow-gold mask, he did not have golden armor like Norik does.

Barring the obvious mix up with Norik having gold armor (something not uncommon for Greg), he thought it necessary to correct this user by clarifying hero instead of Toa specifically, but did not correct them on the Hagah all having gold or silver armor, making this (at least as I understand it) implicit confirmation that they do. Both of these quotes are from Jan 2005. There's also a third quote from Feb 2005:

Did all of the Toa Rahaga have Gold and Silver armor?

If so is this their color of armor

Pouks= Silver

Gaaki= Silver

Kualus= Gold

Bomonga= Gold

Iruini= Gold

Norik= Silver

I have no info on the other four Rahaga Toa or what they looked like. They do not exist as sets and aren't going to appear in the story as Toa, so I have no information on their appearance or mask powers.

Given that these quotes are barely less than a month apart, I highly doubt that it's a forgetcon. This means either A) Greg did not mean to claim that the other Hagah had silver or gold armor (although this is difficult to conclude from their wording), B) Greg changed his mind by the third quote (since its ultimately a non-answer, this is also hard to say), or C) Greg only answered this way because this third quote was a lot more specific, asking for exact armor colors for each of the remaining Hagah, which I believe is the most likely.

To my recollection, these quotes were never mentioned during the discussions on the TTV Hagah Contest ruleset. If they had been, I have no doubt that the conclusion that I have come to would've been reached, that either TTV would've at least considered making a rule for only gold and silver armor or attempted to reach out to Greg for clarification. But since this is after the fact, we're unfortunately left with a tangled mess. Some might compare this to the similar situation for Helryx, where an earlier quote stated she had dark blue armor, although because of the vagueness of "dark blue," it doesn't inherently contradict with the winner, but these Hagah quotes do. Others might say the winners clearly supersede these quotes, but I'm not so sure. I double checked the wording of Greg's responses to TTV:

Helryx: "I formally approve it as canon design."

Artakha: "Yes, it's approved."

Hagah: "Looks just terrific."

Even if the gold and silver armor quotes are insignificant, the fact that Greg never explicitly confirmed the Hagah winning art to be canon is very dissatisfying. I know this is taking splitting hairs to the extreme, but that doesn't change that the pseudo-confirmation from Greg plus this apparent contradiction with his earlier quotes leaves us with a difficult problem. On one hand, I don't see any inherent difference to this than any other Greg quote, where non-answers and loose responses are ignored. On the other hand, that would mean declaring a canon contest winner non-canon, which would be unfair to the winner and cause major outrage in the community. Perhaps before considering what the correct stance should be, we should ask what can we even do. Should this just be put on a note on the Hagah pages, explaining this situation but not taking an official stance either way? Dag (talk) 02:08, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

From the quotes you've provided, I agree with interpretation C. Greg didn't have a firm vision of what the Hagah looked like, so he specifically avoided confirming appearance details. Given that context, we'd best not read into the fact that he didn't correct someone about "gold and silver." All we can reasonably conclude is that the concept of only-gold-and-silver Hagah didn't depart so wildly from Greg's vision that he felt the need to correct it.

As for Greg's wording of the Hagah canonization--as you suggested, the interpretation you've outlined is splitting hairs. A holistic read of the evidence does not lead to the same conclusion. Greg responded to the email with the understanding that his endorsement would make it canon. Since Greg endorsed the piece, it's canon. In my opinion, a note wouldn't be productive since it would only muddy the waters on a cut-and-dry issue. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 04:08, 7 March 2023 (UTC)