Talk:Shadow (Generation 1)
Transportation?
I was just curious - we know Shadow Stealer can open doorways made of shadow to travel long distances, but has anyone else ever displayed this power? I argued to have transportation listed as a "Shadow Stealer-exclusive" ability, but a lot of fans seem to think that Toa of Shadow can use it as well. Is there a definitive answer here? (P.S., I'd get a BZP account and ask Greg, but my computer doesn't like BZP for some reason.) - Toa Jala Converse 22:55, 22 January 2017 (CET)
To the best of my knowledge, only Shadow Stealer can do it. Of course, we've never seen any Toa of Shadow in action, so it's impossible to be 100% sure, but until and unless we get something from Greg or a story with a Shadow Toa that confirms it, I'd say let's be safe and say "Shadow Stealer only." User:ToaOfGallifrey
Full List of Capabilities
Several more uses of shadow powers should be on this list. For example Teridax’s communication and spying through shadows. Transporting through shadows like what Teridax did for Roodaka. Seeing moral darkness is still a shadow power application even if it is from a Kanohi. Shadow constructs such as tendrils and armor. Even if the last one happened in a alternate universe it still is a use of shadow powers that is possible. And I am not so sure but two possible ones that should be up for consideration are Teridax shadow forms the one when he was in Metru Nui and and the one where he had shadow tentacles. The other possible one for consideration should be the shadow Toa Teridax made. I know they are illusions but since they were made from the Toa’s darkness is it figurative or literal? -- (The preceding unsigned comment was made by Makuta of Mata Nui)
- I always thought that Teridax used his telephatic powers to communicate with others, while bending the shadows to create a foe-face. And I also think he simply used his teleportation powers to transfer Roodaka, like in the 2004 comics, Vakama used a teleportation disk on Krekka, and it had a purplish-like effect. The shadow constructs, like the tentacles goes under the "Creating Shadows" point, as "forming objects out of shadows." Seeing moral shadows is a good point, as it should be already listed. And I think in the LoMN he just bended the shadows around him while he was shapeshifting for safety, as he didn'g want to be disturbed while changing into the winged titan. — Surel—Nuva (Talk) 20:46, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
When he teleported Roodaka he covered her in his black and red shadows before she was teleported it was not a feature of teleportation since it happened before that and he can teleport others without covering them in shadows first. He was also using shadow powers to spy since he was looking at Takua in the first movie without comminucationg with him or reading his mind. At the very least it should be included that Makuta can use their shadow powers remotely like how Toa Nuva can use their elemental powers without needing to be there in person like the timed blasts. -- (The preceding unsigned comment was made by Makuta of Mata Nui)
- Should definitely dig up some Greg quotes if there are any on the Shadow scrying and Roodaka teleportation if there are any. As for the Shadow Toa, I am wondering just how they were made, again, we should see if Greg has commented on it. The ability to see Moral Shadow (and Moral Light for Light) should probably be noted on somewhere on the page, but is this an ability limited to Teridax's & Takanuva's Kraahkan/Avohkii or something all Shadow/Light users possess? ~ Wolk (talk) 07:00, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
I have found proof that the Makuta can use their shadow powers to teleport.
Here is the link, it is number 16.
https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2008-2010/page81#post3240
This was years after the movie and Greg said yes to a question referring to if Makuta can use their shadow powers to teleport which apparently they can do that.
Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 09:48, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
- And why can't it be their Kraata power used through their Shadow Hand? The quote is saying any Makuta can pull off that feat, not that it's a shadow power. ~ Wolk (talk) 14:43, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
The question contained the words “used to teleport” meaning it was only referring to a shadow based power and Greg did not said that it was a kraata power being used with the element of shadow he simply replied yes.
Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 20:34, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
Two Errors
As much as I would like moving through enlarged shadows to be a power of this element that is not what happened.
Here is a link to prove it. https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2008-2010/page86#post3407
It seems that it was just a shadow blast. Which also seems to be what happened in the link that follows cloaking an area in darkness.
Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 01:33, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- This only confirms the blast in the wall. But we have seen Toa making walls of elemental energy, and cloaking an area in darkness is also an effect of the Darkness Kraata power.--Surel (Talk) 06:24, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
Well this is a bit late but the second part I was specifically talking about is the link after cloaking an area with darkness is linked to a paragraph featuring a shadow blast not covering an area in darkness. However at this point it is pointless since it has been fixed but I just wanted to clarify what I meant is the link I put was only meant to be for the enlarging shadows part not cloaking an area in darkness part. I was just referring that both seemed to be blasts of shadows not enlarging shadows or cloaking a area in shadows.
Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 07:02, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
Heat Negation and Blending into Darkness
Should the fact that the element of shadows can negate heat be mentioned? Darkness kraata can extinguished fires and Teridax cut the Karzahni plant off from heat. Which is something that I think should be to added here since this element is more than just mundane darkness since darkness does not eliminate heat.
Another thing I wonder is if the ability to blend into darkness should be added in as well. Darkness kraata can become invisible in darkness which is neither producing, controlling, or absorbing shadows. Also Eliminator has something like this since he can disappear into shadows without controlling, absorbing, or creating them. So should this be added in as well?
Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 07:11, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
- For the latter, is that not just concealing oneself in a darkness field, which is creating darkness? But yes, it is a feat that should be mentioned under that. The heat thing is also a good point... ~ Wolk (talk) 11:25, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
- Checked Eliminator, and it's controlling shadows to conceal him, yeah, akin to the "cloaking targets in darkness" ability currently listed. ~ Wolk (talk) 11:29, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
- I'm on the fence about heat, but I definitely think that "negating light" would be a good addition to the list of examples. When did a Kraata of Darkness put out a fire? - Toa Jala Converse 05:17, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
It is written in the stages for the darkness kraata that they can extinguish fire. Also the quote on the page mentioned negating heat or at least preventing it. Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 05:29, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
- It says it can snuff out the light from flame, so Shadow-users can certainly negate visible light. - Toa Jala Converse 14:36, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
That is true however that still does not explain cutting off the Karzahni plant from all heat after all even in complete darkness heat can still be present. So it has to be a aspect of the element of shadows. Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 21:03, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
- The Karzahni didn't only die because the Shadow cut if off from the light. It died because the shadows cut it off from air and it couldn't "breath." --Surel (Talk) 03:28, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
The quote on this page literally mentions heat and I have not heard of shadows mimicking a vacuum. Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 03:46, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
The part about blending into darkness I was referring to is the stage one darkness kraata power which is this “ Has the natural ability to become invisible in shadow” so this is different than hiding in darkness which means this application of it is neither creating darkness nor is it manipulating it. Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 13:23, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
Shadow Transmutation
Should the fact that Teridax turned spheres of liquid protodermis and a sphere of light into spheres of shadows in the Mask of Light movie be added? Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 10:08, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
- Energized Protodermis, not Liquid Protodermis. But we should probably further research if Greg has said anything on it first. ~ Wolk (talk) 12:58, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
- https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page11#post424-line32-33 "As far as I am concerned, it was always protodermis." ~ Wolk (talk) 13:10, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
Well regardless of the form of protodermis the power to transform light or protodermis into shadow should be added in the list of examples since it is Teridax’s power since his staff can only channel his shadows powers. Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 00:47, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- My guess was that the substance itself didn't change, only the aura of the sphere was changed from Shadow to Light and vica-versa, like an outer layer around the protodermis sphere.--Surel (Talk) 06:21, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
Here is the section of the Mask of Light book I am talking about “This time Makuta was the faster one. He grabbed the ball with his kolhii staff, and it immediately transformed into a ball of dark shadow energy.” It specifically says it turned into shadow energy so it was not just an aura effect. Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 08:13, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
I wonder if this power can be applied to other elements considering an energy based element by that I mean light and a matter based element water specifically liquid protodermis were affected in the same way by this power. Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 00:15, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
Oh by the way the section in quotes is from Bionicle Mask of Light “A Real Hero” which is the last section of that book. Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 00:18, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
I have confirmation that Makuta can transforme other things into shadow. Here is the link it is question number 7 on the third list of questions. https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page8#post312
I suppose this means it does work on protodermis since the word transformation is used in both examples of transforming a form of energy and a form of matter into shadow. Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 10:23, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
- The quote doesn't say he can transform "other things" into shadow, just light, so this is not confirmation that it works on protodermis. Dag (talk) 13:34, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
In the mask of light book the ball of protodermis was mentioned being transformed multiple times here is a quote. “Makuta grabbed the next protodermis ball and transformed it. Then he walked toward the two pillars, searching for his quarry.”
Here is a quote featuring Takanuva’s power “He landed on a perch along one of the pillars. Makuta followed, perching on another pillar. The ball of protodermis in Takanuva’s scoop transformed suddenly into a glowing ball of light. Takanuva launched it toward Makuta.” If Takanuva was doing this in the match and Teridax was as well, this shadow transmutation power is not simply infusing shadow into protodermis. Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 01:07, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
- Protodermis here is Energized Protodermis, as that distinction wasn't made until 04. And as Greg said, in the first quote I linked, he considered it to stay EP. ~ Wolk (talk) 02:30, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
Regardless of what it is, it is still transforming matter into shadow energy. Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 03:39, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
Also if it is EP then it was transformed since if it was still EP then the shadow energy or the environment could have been affected by it. Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 03:42, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
- I think you didn't consider the option, that the book version of the book might be incorrect or non-canonical at all, or just the way how Hapka interpretended the movie script. If Farshtey says it wasn't transmutated into anything, just given a light or shadow aura, than that's what happened.--Surel (Talk) 11:12, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
I am pretty sure a shadow or light aura was never mentioned. Plus whether you follow the book or movie it is the same. In the book it is said it transformed into energy and in the movie wouldn’t there be a splash if it was just an aura since in that scenario the liquid would still exist? Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 13:10, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
In Legacy of Evil chapter 7 it is mentioned that the walls in Teridaxe's lair were damaged by shadow energy bolts wouldn't this imply that the projectiles being tossed around actually became shadow energy? Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 10:25, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
I have found evidence against the spheres of energized protodermis being charged with shadow energy theory. Here is the link. https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2013-2017/page698#post12556665 Since Teridax was doing it with shadow as Takunva was doing it with light it can not be something toa exclusive like charging the spheres with elemental energy. Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 12:10, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
Solid Shadows
Since on other pages such as sonics, plasma, and light mentioned creating objects out of those elements even if they are normally intangible shouldn’t the power to make objects out of shadows be added to this page as well? I can list several examples such as shadow Takanuva making strangling tendrils, Keetongu being trapped by coils of shadows, Vican being crushed by a wisp of shadows, and Antroz once used chains made of shadows to hang some of the Toa Nuva from the ceiling. Not to mention shadow hands but that is a different story. There is more than enough examples for making solid objects out of shadows to be added to this page.
Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 09:38, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
- Yeah, Shadow Hands are considered their own power, but the rest of the examples are pretty solid (pun intended). If you can cite those examples, you can add it. - Toa Jala Converse 06:09, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
I have no idea on how to do that but I believe I remember from which books these examples happened. The one with Vican was in Shadows In The Sky chapter 7. The one with Keetongu was in Time Trap chapter 7. The one with the shadow Takanuva was in Reign of Shadows chapter 12. The shadow chains by Antroz was in Battle for Power 12.5 script page 3.
Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 07:22, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
- You can add citations using these templates. Each template page has documentation and examples that you can copy.
- Also, you can edit articles that already have citations to see more examples of how the templates work. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 21:25, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
- Done. I couldn't figure out how to cite BIONICLE Ignition 12.5, but the other three citations are more than enough. - Toa Jala Converse 00:06, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
I was wondering when Icarax used shadows on Vican to almost crush him should the fact that he turns a wisp of shadow into solid chains and then choosing to dissipate it count as a power of shadows? Such as turning intangible shadows solid and vice versa?
Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 09:33, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
- I think "creating solid objects from shadows" covers that well enough. - Toa Jala Converse 01:26, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
Shadow Blasts
If lasers are on the light page as are blasts of plasma and fire are on their respective pages then blasts and bolts of shadow should be added since they are distinct from generating darkness and I am pretty sure those applications are different from solid shadows being created plus there are even more than one picture of it, these applications should be included as well. Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 13:31, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
- Sounds good to me. I'd suggest phrasing it similarly to Fire and Plasma. For example: "creating blasts and/or concentrated beams of shadow energy". - Toa Jala Converse 06:48, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
After finding a variety of range attacks that can be used by shadow users I was wondering should the pseudo nova blast Mutran did be included since it was expelling all his shadow element at once which is different from a regular shadow blast and does not draw in shadows like a shadow toa’s nova blast would? Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 08:24, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
Shadow Armor Related Additions
While the shadow armor alternate Teridax made are part of creating objects using shadows section I believe I found two possible additions to this page related to shadow armor. First should using shadows to shield oneself from light be added? The second I am not sure where this would be put but should making objects out of shadow that endure be added? Specifically it was said by Takanuva that shadow armored Rahkshi can still exist even if the user of those shadows is gone. Since the alternate Takanuva made light barriers and it is impossible for him to concentrate on them all the time especially since he needs to sleep and he became a Turaga which would weaken his powers and the fact Greg said that the shadow and light elements were similar and a Makuta having greater power over their element than a toa it is very likely that the shadow armor of the Rahkshi still exist. Which is why I am wondering if creating objects made of shadow without concentrating on them and they still exist should be on this page? I hope this is a topic worth discussing. Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 08:35, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
- It's possible. Do you know where in the story these were used? ~ Wolk (talk) 09:03, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
The Kingdom story is where both the shadow armor and the light barriers were used in. Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 09:07, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
Vortex
Should the abilty to create vortexes of darkness be added? I am not refering to the time Teridax shapeshifted in the 2nd movie nor the time he shapeshifted from a matoran to that vortex form with the shadow tentacles. In ignition comic 12.5 Antroz made a vortex of darkness and he was in no way shapeshifting at the time. I belive this should be included since this is neither creating a range attack of shadow nor is it creating a solid object made of shadow either. Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 07:15, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- Done. - Toa Jala Converse 05:11, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
Communication and Spying
Are we sure that Teridax was using shadows to communicate in MoL and BC4? I always assumed he was using the power of illusion to make others think he was with them. And what about spying? Is it possible that he was using telepathy to "watch" Takua (maybe not "watching" so much as reading his mind to see what he was doing)? - Toa Jala Converse 05:11, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
Considering when Jaller lit the tunnel up and the shadow eyes dissapeared it is probably not an illusion since if it was an illusion it would not disappear due to bright light since the illusions of a makuta are in the target's head. Teridax has made illusions that made his targets ignore the local environment like what he did with Takadox so if it was an illusion why would bright light negate it? Also since the elemental powers of a makuta are between toa nuva who can affect things with a delayed effect from a distance and the elemental lords who can become their element it makes sense if the makuta can do something between those two as being able to communicate from a distance using their elemental power. Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 07:28, 16 October 2022 (UTC)