Talk:Lein

Lein needs appearances. All I can think of is Mata Nui's Guide to Bara Magna. Anything else? --- Creep 02:11, 7 March 2017 (CET)

It doesn't matter whether he needs appearances or not; he doesn't have any. MNGtBM only mentions Lein's Drift, not Lein himself; all our information about Lein came from Greg answers. It's a similar way with the Element Lord of Earth and other pages - sometimes there just aren't any appearances to list. --Angel Bob (talk) 04:07, 7 March 2017 (CET)

I mean, the difference is that the Earth Lord was canonized AFTER the series was done. Lein was mentioned more than once, and those times should be put here. Problem is, I can't remember where he was mentioned. --- Creep 04:13, 7 March 2017 (CET)

You can't remember where he was mentioned because he wasn't. No published source ever refers to Lein himself. All our information comes from Greg. Sorry to say, that's the end of the story here. --Angel Bob (talk) 04:48, 7 March 2017 (CET)

Doesn't we have an "Indirectly referenced" "{{C|}}" tag for that? :D (I know we don't, but could be something)-- Surel—Nuva (Talk) 19:02, 7 March 2017 (CET)

Maybe Lein's Drift is mentioned? (IDK, I don't have the guide) I guess that would count as a mention. ~OnionShark 19:31, 7 March 2017 (CET)

The Lein's Drift is mentioned in the Guide, that was the reason I added it. But it is more likely an "indirect reference" rather than a real "mention" -- Surel—Nuva (Talk) 19:35, 7 March 2017 (CET)

So, to settle the matter, I looked at pages that were named after another page: Book of Certavus and Certavus, Artakha (Location) and Artakha (Being), and Karzahni (Location) and Karzahni (Being). For Karzahni and Certavus, we seem to count mentions of the derivative object (Book of Certavus, Karzahni, etc) as mentions of the being for whom it's named. Now, I think that's ridiculous; when Tuma says he sent a patrol of Skrall to look for the Book of Certavus, he's talking about the Book of Certavus, not Certavus himself. And when Maze of Shadows mentions the fabled lands of Artakha and Karzahni, it makes no allusion whatsoever to their rulers. So I'm going to remove those mentions from the relevant pages. If you have a good argument for why we should double-count appearances, though, feel free to post it here. --Angel Bob (talk) 19:41, 7 March 2017 (CET)

If you mention someone's book, and say that person's name, aren't you mentioning them too? With Artakha and Karzahni it's different, because the islands are places named after them. If someone is called John, and I call an island "John" in his honor, I'm not mentioning him, but if I call that island "John's Island" I actually am. So, shall we add the appearence again? ~OnionShark 19:56, 7 March 2017 (CET)

I can see the case for it, but I don't think it's strong enough. When Mata Nui's Guide mentions Lein's Drift, there's no indication whatsoever of who or what "Lein" is (or was, as the case may be). If you desperately want to add the appearance, I won't stop you, but I think it's a little silly. --Angel Bob (talk) 23:45, 7 March 2017 (CET)

I'm thinking we shouldn't list appearances for Lein. Even with the apostrophe, "Lein's Drift" is still an actual location name--it's different from a character saying, "Oh yeah, that drift over there belongs to Lein" (in which case Lein would get a "mentioned only" appearance). The location is either referred to by its official name—in which case any use of that name only refers to the location—or not. I think adding an extra layer of nuance with "indirect references" is just opening a can of worms.... Are all mentions of Nektann robots references to the warlord? Whenever someone talks about the island of Mata Nui, are they also referencing the Great Spirit? Etc. We'd have to draw an arbitrary line somewhere. Ultimately we list appearances to make things easier for readers, and drawing distinctions based on apostrophes and the like seems too confusing to be useful. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 05:38, 9 March 2017 (CET)

I agree that "inderect reference" is unneeded, because it treats things named after someone and things that are known with a name that states who they belong to like if they were the same, and in neither case there is an indirect mention. Someone's namesake is obviously not, while things like Lein's Drift mention directly the person to whom the thing belongs. But, as I already said, the two things are different, and even if a place is literally called "John's Island", it still mentions to whom the island belongs to, so I think that Lein's and Certavus's appearences should stay, but without this "indirect reference." ~OnionShark 20:31, 9 March 2017 (CET)