Talk:Kaukau Nuva

Immoral Kanohi

It can be used to suffocate enemies by sharing its power, although Toa consider that to be immoral.

I might read that wrong, but that doesn't seem to mean it's an immoral Kanohi. There's an use that is considered immoral, not the full mask.

--maxim21 21:10, 7 December 2014 (CET)

I'm sure every mask could have an immoral use. I don't think this should be considered an immoral mask. --Boidoh (talk) 21:40, 7 December 2014 (CET)

Application

Maybe I'm overthinking this, but wouldn't using a Kaukau Nuva to suffocate others invariably apply the same effect to users (rendering the whole concept relatively useless)? Or can bearers exempt themselves when sharing mask power?

Witch (talk) 9:13, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

They can activate the mask's power while they are underwater and share with those who aren't, but near them.--Surel (Talk) 09:58, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Unlimited Duration

I have no idea why ToaKebaka removed the note explaining the situation about earlier material stating the Kaukau Nuva had unlimited duration as being incorrect and why the page, rightfully so, sided with later material, including the BEU, and Greg's comment on the matter. If it is because the quote used is considered a 'non-answer,' it is not. While Greg did say he was unaware of any official material stating that it was unlimited and was wrong in that, he also said "if it says that in the Encyclopedia, then that is the case." This implicitly suggests that, if there were discrepancies between published sources, whatever is in the BEU is to be sided with. This makes even more sense considering the alternative goes against what we know about Kanohi generally, being limited in duration and concentration.

EDIT: ToaKebaka, I would appreciate that you used the edit summaries and talk pages more effectively, so that edit wars like this do not occur in the future. With that said, I do not think you are being honest with the sources. You can't view them as independent statistical points and ignore the ones you believe are outliers (which you provided no metric as to how you determine that), as if they weren't all written by the same man. The same man who wrote Bionicle 8 that says the mask is unlimited, was also later consistent on his wording about "longer duration" and it not actually being unlimited. It seems clear that there was simply a change to how the mask functions. Dag (talk) 01:45, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

You're taking everything here far too literally, and ignoring the context

Firstly, he says "if it says that in the Encyclopedia, that is the case," after saying "I don't know where [BS01] got that from]", because he asked where the user got the info from and they just said it was from BS01. He is NOT saying that if there is a discrepancy, then the BEU is to be sided with; he is citing the BEU as a possible source of info. He himself says he doesn't remember that being stated, so he just cites the most complete source of info, the Encyclopedia.

Second, let's assume for a moment that that IS what he meant. The Encyclopedia says it allows the user to stay under longer. The comic says it allows the user to stay underwater for an unlimited time. There is no discrepancy here. "Unlimited" is longer than "limited", as ToaKebaka said.

Third, yes, Greg states that every mask is limited in duration. That is because every mask will eventually run out of power. No mask can be used for forever. However, some masks, like the Kaukau, have a time limit to their usage. The Kaukau Nuva does NOT. You can use it to breath underwater until the mask runs out of energy. Greg himself literally replies to the question right before the one that is cited, that actually asks about the Kaukau Nuva, saying "masks run out of power eventually, it just takes a long time."

So no, the earlier published material is NOT incorrect. It simply doesn't mention the fact that the mask will run out of power eventually, like all masks do, so it's not technically infinite. But it is unlimited in the sense that it does not have a time limit, like the regular Kaukau does. That is EXPLICITLY stated in published material, contradicted nowhere, and it's not even worth a note to say "well technically if you want to be pedantic it won't last forever because no mask lasts forever, so TECNICALLY the published material is incorrect." --Willess12 (talk) 01:17, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

"You're taking everything here far too literally, and ignoring the context"

No, I don't believe that I am. To put it in context, Greg says:

"I don't believe we have stated it to be limitless, for either mask. If we have somewhere, then cite me the source and I will see what it says."

This tells me that Greg wanted to know 1) which source specifically it came from and 2) what it said, and that he would look it over. Then, when the person asking the question said they didn't have the source, only that it was on BS01, Greg replies:

"Well, without knowing where they got that, I can't comment. If it says that in the Encyclopedia, then that is the case."

Greg couldn't comment because he didn't know where the claim came from. He then gave what it seems he meant to give as a general rule of thumb for situations like this, which is "if it says that in the Encyclopedia, then that is the case." Sure, perhaps if Greg had known that it was said to be unlimited in one of the comics, his answer may have been different, but that would be total speculation on our part. Although I don't have a specific Greg quote on hand right now, the Tiers of Canonicity (which Greg approved) say "in cases where sources within this tier [Books, comics, and, more broadly, any officially published material written by Greg Farshtey] contradict, later sources take precedence over earlier ones, as they presumably represent a change in the story team's view of canon." It's also BS01's traditional view (unless this has recently changed), that material closer to the end of the story (2010-2011) takes precedence. Either way, BEU would trump Comic 8, even without attempting to interpret this Greg quote.

"Second, let's assume for a moment that that IS what he meant. The Encyclopedia says it allows the user to stay under longer. The comic says it allows the user to stay underwater for an unlimited time. There is no discrepancy here. 'Unlimited' is longer than 'limited', as ToaKebaka said."

And as I said, "A change in wording implies a change to the mask. If the sources that say 'longer' meant 'unlimited,' they would've said 'unlimited.'"

"Third, yes, Greg states that every mask is limited in duration. That is because every mask will eventually run out of power."

Technically, yes, you are correct that the "duration" is because of the mask's power eventually running out, but Greg also suggests that's true of Kanohi generally (quote). In other words, a sufficiently strong user could keep their Kanohi activated for all those years and years until it fully runs out of power. But if that's true of Kanohi generally, which this quote suggests, why is it only stated for the Kaukau Nuva to be unlimited? Either this description is meaningless since it would just be saying the same thing that Greg does of all Kanohi, or it meant that the Kaukau Nuva is literally limitless in duration, never running out of power. Dag (talk) 02:06, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

"He then gave what it seems he meant to give as a general rule of thumb for situations like this, which is "if it says that in the Encyclopedia, then that is the case.""

That doesn't seem like a general rule of thumb. It seems like, without having any idea where it came from, he took his best guess, citing the BEU because it was supposed to have ALL the info on everything. He's certainly not saying "if there's a discrepancy, use the BEU" because no one even said there was a discrepancy. And again, it's a non-issue, because there is no discrepancy here.

"A change in wording implies a change to the mask. If the sources that say 'longer' meant 'unlimited,' they would've said 'unlimited.'"

Except it is a change in wording that means absolutely nothing. Unlimited time IS a longer duration. The Encyclopedia literally says the same thing as the comic, just in a different way.

"why is it only stated for the Kaukau Nuva to be unlimited?"

Because the Kaukau itself is limited. This should be obvious. The Nuva masks are meant to be upgrades of the regular masks. How is the Kaukau Nuva an upgrade? Well, it can allow you to go deeper and it doesn't have a time limit. Greg also cites this as the way that a Noble Kaukau is less powerful: it has an even shorter time limit.--Willess12 (talk) 02:20, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

"That doesn't seem like a general rule of thumb. It seems like, without having any idea where it came from, he took his best guess, citing the BEU because it was supposed to have ALL the info on everything."

For the sake argument, okay, sure. That still doesn't negate the standards of TGA and BS01 siding with later material in situations such as this.

"Except it is a change in wording that means absolutely nothing."

If that were true, then there wouldn't be a change at all, yes?

"Because the Kaukau itself is limited."

Limited in what way? Where is it said that the Kaukau has a time limit apart from simply running out of power after years and years? The BEU just says "an extended period of time," which is vague enough that it could go either way. If it's not said to have some other defined time limit, then it's just as that Greg quote said, Kanohi duration is simply from them running out of power, but a sufficiently strong will could make any mask "unlimited." If that's all that is meant by the Kaukau being limited, then it would be just as unlimited as the Kaukau Nuva or any other Kanohi. As with the Mask of Clairvoyance, I think I'm going to step away from this issue and see what others have to say. Dag (talk) 02:51, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

I know I said that I would leave this to see what other people had to say, but after having thought about it, I realized you have contradicted your own argument. You can't argue that there is no meaningful difference between "unlimited" and "longer duration" when you actively edit the page from "longer duration" to "unlimited," as if there is a meaningful difference. You said it yourself, "it is a change in wording that means absolutely nothing," yet you believe my edit to the page did change something, or else you wouldn't have undone it. I am going to reedit the page to say "longer duration" since 1) that is what the BEU says (I've already provided several reasons why it should be our standard) and 2) it is the only description that isn't in contention (we agree that the Kaukau Nuva is longer in duration than the Kaukau, we just disagree on whether it's unlimited). BS01, as I've been told, is more about accuracy than completion. I will, however, change the note about some sources saying the mask is unlimited, removing explicit wording saying it's considered incorrect, and instead just list it as an alternate interpretation. I think that's a reasonable compromise. Dag (talk) 18:56, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I would appreciate that you used the edit summaries and talk pages more effectively, so that edit wars like this do not occur in the future.

I edited the page with the added explanation and only later noticed the talk page discussion. In any case I'm here now.

You can't view them as independent statistical points and ignore the ones you believe are outliers (which you provided no metric as to how you determine that)

?? There are no outliers to have been ignored by me as there is no contradiction.

Anyway, Willess12 is 100% right on just about everything said. You are taking Greg's response out of context effectively forcing some kind of stipulation, which he did not mean. Neither Greg nor the asker remembered the source, so no meaningful comment could have been made by Greg and he said as much. The question was asked because the info was not cited on BS01 at the time.

Failure of a fan wiki to properly cite the official sources cannot be used to dicredit said sources - that's just illogical.

"Except it is a change in wording that means absolutely nothing."

If that were true, then there wouldn't be a change at all, yes?

No. The same information is re-phrased in different ways all the time, otherwise all text would just be copy-pasted over and over again. There is a reason why dark hunter info in BEU and DH guides are not exact copies of each other.

You can't argue that there is no meaningful difference between "unlimited" and "longer duration" when you actively edit the page from "longer duration" to "unlimited," as if there is a meaningful difference. You said it yourself, "it is a change in wording that means absolutely nothing," yet you believe my edit to the page did change something, or else you wouldn't have undone it.

Ok, first of all, that is not true. Your edit is specifically worded to say that the information about "unlimited" duration is incorrect, and by extension implies that there is an unknown finite value. So in that context, no it is not the same. You are now trying to say that it does not matter which formulation is on the page as they are essentially the same, yet you are removing specific information trying to say they are not only different, but one of them must be incorrect. Your edit implies contradiction between sources which isn't really there - that is the true reason why it was changed, not because Willes12 believes there is a difference between the meaning of the sources.

Second, using your own argument, it is quite disingenuous to challenge Willess12 on their decision to edit the page back, when you are the one who made the initial "unlimited/longer" edit back in 2021. Shouldn't you challenge your own edit on that same basis?

On another note, all the talk about no mask truly having a limit other than its finite energy, or user's will, omitts one important detail. There is in fact a third limit, which is that some (not all) masks have a time limit on its consecutive use, after which a period of "cooldown" is needed. In other words a mask can both: 1) have enough energy to still function for hhundreds of years, 2) have a user with enough willpower to keep it running for longer; yet still shut down because it reached its natural time limit for single unbroken use. This duration limit is one of the differences between Great and Noble Kanohi - for some masks, it is the ONLY difference (Huna). If you are trying to say that any mask can in theory be used indefinitely if the user's will is strong enough, that is simply not true for most masks. And the whole point of Kaukau Nuva is that this duration cap is removed, thus making the mask stronger from compared to its regular great counterpart.

Ultimately, there is really no discussion to be had here, this is a pretty cut and dry case. No contradiction, no problem. As Willess12 correctly surmised, this shouldn't even have any note, because there is nothing noteworthy to be added, no discrepancy at all. Therefore the best course of action would be to revert the page to the last edit made by Willess12.--ToaKebaka (talk) 17:43, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

"There are no outliers to have been ignored by me as there is no contradiction."

At the very least, you have to admit the Greg quote is an apparent one. Sure, maybe he just simply misremembered, or he did actually change his mind on the function of the mask, regardless of whether it was stated to be unlimited before (which would again explain why he said "if it says that in the Encyclopedia, then that is the case"). Plus the other CwGF Greg quote that says no mask is unlimited. And again, the change in wording from "unlimited" to "longer duration" is relevant, as I have explained and will explain to you again. By saying there is no contradiction, you are ignoring these differences.

"You are taking Greg's response out of context effectively forcing some kind of stipulation, which he did not mean."

And as I said to Willess, I am willing to accept that at least for the sake of argument. It still does not change the fact that BS01 and TGA's Tiers of Canonicity would both side with the BEU. Even if you believe there is no substantial difference between "unlimited" and "longer duration," the wording of the BEU should be what is used on the page.

"Failure of a fan wiki to properly cite the official sources cannot be used to dicredit said sources - that's just illogical."

And I agree. Good thing I never actually said that, or that that was my reasoning for siding against the comic.

"Your edit is specifically worded to say that the information about "unlimited" duration is incorrect, and by extension implies that there is an unknown finite value. So in that context, no it is not the same."

And you've just proven my point. "Longer duration" is inherently ambiguous. It could either refer to an unknown finite value, or agree with the comic that the mask is unlimited. I never once said that they couldn't possibly agree with each other. What I said was there is a meaningful difference in the change in wording, and that implies a change to the mask, which is again supported by Greg quotes saying the Kaukau Nuva is not unlimited.

"You are now trying to say that it does not matter which formulation is on the page as they are essentially the same"

Still not true. I was arguing from Willess' perspective to show how it's contradictory. I still believe the change in wording implies a change to the mask, and I believe the comic should be considered to be incorrect. I removed expressed mention of it being incorrect from the page to please the other side. That's what a compromise is.

"Second, using your own argument, it is quite disingenuous to challenge Willess12 on their decision to edit the page back, when you are the one who made the initial "unlimited/longer" edit back in 2021. Shouldn't you challenge your own edit on that same basis?"

Not when that basis is BS01's policy to favor material closer to the end of the storyline, or the Tiers of Canonicity that says "later sources take precedence over earlier ones, as they presumably represent a change in the story team's view of canon." Willess' edits and yours expressly went against those standards.

"On another note, all the talk about no mask truly having a limit other than its finite energy, or user's will, omitts one important detail. There is in fact a third limit, which is that some (not all) masks have a time limit on its consecutive use, after which a period of "cooldown" is needed."

I know most (if not all) masks have a hard time limit regardless of willpower, and that's initially what I was trying to argue by saying the Kaukau Nuva being unlimited goes against how Kanohi generally function. But I then tried to steelman Willess' argument (specifically when he said "yes, Greg states that every mask is limited in duration. That is because every mask will eventually run out of power."), and showed that even then, the Kaukau Nuva being stated to be "unlimited" wouldn't mean anything. Also, you say "some (not all) masks," but I don't know of any other masks that have been explicitly said not to have a time limit, the Kaukau Nuva is the only one I know of.

"And the whole point of Kaukau Nuva is that this duration cap is removed, thus making the mask stronger from compared to its regular great counterpart."

The overall point of the Nuva masks is that they are stronger and more powerful than even the Greats (and can be shared, of course). The Kaukau Nuva having no hard time limit isn't necessary for that to still hold, it at least just needs to have a longer duration than the Great Kaukau. If it were necessary, then all the Nuva masks would be unlimited.

"Therefore the best course of action would be to revert the page to the last edit made by Willess12."

I have to ask what specifically do you think is wrong with how the page is currently worded. Note that I'm not asking you what you dislike about it, but what you think is wrong with it. I don't like that it doesn't specifically say the comic is incorrect, but given this conversation, I think the page is satisfactory. The wording of the BEU is used on the page (as it should be), but no information is left out, noting the different wording in the comic. Dag (talk) 19:13, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I do think the way the page is worded is fine for right now, while a discussion is being had. However, I do think a conclusion needs to be reached, because there is an issue: The published material doesn't "suggest" that the Kaukau Nuva's duration is unlimited. It literally states it, word for word. The comic wording should be used on the page, NOT the BEU, and I'm going to explain why.

1: the wording of the BEU should be used, since it is more recent and later sources take precedence over earlier ones.

You are leaving out an important part of this precendent. I'm going to quote your initial statement on it, for simplicity: "the Tiers of Canonicity (which Greg approved) say "in cases where sources within this tier [Books, comics, and, more broadly, any officially published material written by Greg Farshtey] contradict, later sources take precedence over earlier ones, as they presumably represent a change in the story team's view of canon." The thing is, this is not a case where they contradict. One says that it is an unlimited duration. The second one only says it lets you stay under longer. If the first one is true, then the second one HAS to be true as well, because unlimited time is longer than anything. One is simply more specific, and provides MORE info than the BEU. Therefore, this is a case where the earlier material should be used, as it provides more information and is less vague.

2: No other masks are stated not to have a time limit, only the Kaukau Nuva.

--First off, does it matter? The Kaukau Nuva IS stated to be unlimited. Even if it is the only one stated to be unlimited, well, maybe it is. Or maybe we just don't have anything stating that some other mask is unlimited. Maybe the Mask of Rahi control is unlimited, or the Mohtrek. As far as I'm aware, there's nothing saying there's a hard time limit on those masks. It's a logical fallacy to say "well, no other mask is stated to be unlimited in duration, so the Kaukau Nuva must not be". Sure, if there wasn't anything saying that it is, it would be a safe assumption. Similar to how this wiki lists many of the unnamed Toa we know about as having once been Matoran, with a note saying that it is a safe assumption. However, that is not the case here: we have a source stating that the Kaukau Nuva is unlimited.

--Second, why would it be unlimited when no other mask is? Well, because it is a Nuva mask. So why aren't the Nuva masks unlimited? Well, because most of them aren't going to be used constantly like the Kaukau Nuva is. The Pakari and Kakama already have a limited duration based on the user's endurance, since they don't increase that. The Hau and Akaku are generally masks you use for a short time anyway: The Hau is activated to block an attack, and then de-activated, and the Akaku is used, you see what you need to, and that's done. The Kaukau and Miru are the only ones the user might need to have active for an extended period of time. The Kaukau is especially important, because if you hit the time limit while you're under water, you're in trouble.

--My point is, maybe all the Nuva masks have an "unlimited" duration. But it is noted specifically on the Kaukau because it is the most likely one to be used constantly, aside from maybe the Miru Nuva. But like I said, even if all of the others have a time limit -- so what? The Kaukau Nuva doesn't, that is explicitly stated. Why is it different? I don't know. But that shouldn't be used as an argument for why it isn't unlimited.

3: Greg forgot that the mask's duration is stated to be unlimited.

No argument there, you're 100% correct on that, and Greg himself states that he doesn't remember saying it. But the issue is, he never contradicts it either. I don't think it's fair to assume the BEU is written differently for any certain reason. Maybe, when he wrote BEU, he changed the wording because he changed his mind on how the mask works. Or maybe he just felt like wording it differently. Or maybe he didn't remember what he had said, and didn't want to accidentally contradict himself, so he was intentionally vague. Regardless, it doesn't matter, because the statement in the BEU is too vague to be treated as a contradiction. Which brings me to my next point, one I don't think has been brought up yet.

4. The change from "Unlimited" to "Longer Duration" suggests a change in how the mask works

--I think it is important to note the exact wording of the BEU: "this mask made it possible for the wearer to stay under longer". The word "duration" is never used. Saying it has a longer duration would imply a time limit, and we see that with the Vahi stun staffs, but that is not the case here. The way it is worded fits perfectly with what we know of the mask from comic 8, that its use is unlimited. It neither states, nor implies, that the Kaukau Nuva has any time limit. It DOES imply that a regular Kaukau has a time limit, since the Kaukau Nuva can be used for longer, and you can't really be longer than "unlimited time".

--However, I will admit that this is my most subjective point. You are right, it doesn't say "unlimited" like the comic does. It is open for interpretation. Some people might read that and think it suggests there is still a time limit, while others like me might read it and say it doesn't suggest that at all. Which is why the Comic wording SHOULD be used here, as it clears up the issue by stating explicitly "It allows you to breathe underwater for an unlimited time".

--Point being: I will admit that the wording of the BEU is open for interpretation, so let me suggest a different compromise, slightly akin to how the page is now. The page says that it can allow you to breath underwater at greater depths, and for an unlimited time, citing the comic. However, we still have a note, something like this: "while the Bionicle Encyclopedia Updated suggests that it is simply a longer duration, earlier material states that it can be used indefinitely." I still think the BEU doesn't suggest that at all, you may think differently, but I do think we can agree that there IS ambiguity. Enough to warrant a note, perhaps, but not enough to say that the unambiguous source is wrong. --Willess12 (talk) 17:48, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

"The thing is, this is not a case where they contradict."

You can't argue that they absolutely do not contradict while also admitting "that the wording of the BEU is open for interpretation." If it is open to interpretation, then it is possible that it is meant to be interpreted contrary to the what the comic says. If the BEU meant that it was unlimited, it would have had no problem saying so. ToaKebaka's argument about this being a simple change in wording like the differences between the BEU and DH guide isn't logically sound (for one, the BEU is an out-of-universe perspective, whereas the DH guide is meant to be from TSO's perspective). This isn't the first time ToaKebaka and I have discussed the wording of power sets being changed and how that suggests a change in the actual power (link).

"First off, does it matter?"

I was merely curious if ToaKebaka knew something that I did not (that some other masks have been stated to not have time limits), or if he was making an unjustified assumption, which might have affected his or my arguments.

"It neither states, nor implies, that the Kaukau Nuva has any time limit. It DOES imply that a regular Kaukau has a time limit, since the Kaukau Nuva can be used for longer, and you can't really be longer than 'unlimited time'."

And I could argue that because the BEU explicitly says for the Kaukau "an extended period of time," that when it says the Kaukau Nuva is "longer" that it's simply that: longer than the Kaukau, but still for a finite amount of time. If I said my pool was deeper than yours, would you automatically assume that mine is bottomless? Reading the BEU on its own, as if you didn't know about the comic saying unlimited, would you ever possibly come to the conclusion that the Kaukau Nuva is unlimited, just from the wording of the BEU? You've already admitted that you agree with me that it's ambiguous, but it's only made ambiguous by the existence of the comic saying its unlimited. If the BEU was all there was, saying the Kaukau Nuva is unlimited from that alone would be a baseless claim. Dag (talk) 18:52, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

--So, I just realized something glaringly obvious(edit: by that I mean it should have been glaringly obvious to me, since I've been staring at these descriptions for the past few hours), and I don't know why this didn't occur to me before. Why does the BEU say "longer" instead of "Unlimited"? Well, maybe to clarify that it is longer than the Kaukau itself.

--I reread the description in comic 8 and I noticed something. To quote it exactly: "allows the user to breathe underwater for an unlimited time, even at extreme depths" -- emphasis mine (huh, I also just noticed it's the only one that doesn't say "and those close by/nearby"). If the BE/BEU never existed, and I had read that, I would have thought that the whole "extreme depths" thing is the only difference, since it is set apart from the rest, and the "breathe underwater for an unlimited time" is something both the normal Kaukau and the Kaukau Nuva can do. Just like how the kakama Nuva description in the same comic says "Allows you to move at great speed and pass through solid objects"; the first part is what a regular kakama does, the second part is the upgrade. As you yourself pointed out, there's no other source stating that the Kaukau has a time limit to its use. Up until 2005, I don't think we knew that masks even HAD a time limit.

--So the answer to your question "why not just say it is unlimited" is that Greg is pointing out that the duration is actually part of the difference between the Kaukau and the Kaukau Nuva. All of the BE/BEU entries for the Nuva masks are written like this (except for the Akaku Nuva, for some reason): they are written right after the entries for the regular masks, so they are stating how the mask is an upgrade. For the Kaukau, the upgrade is that it can be used at greater depths and lasts longer. Maybe Greg DID forget that he already said the Kaukau Nuva usage was unlimited --I think that the fact that the BE/BEU don't specify the unlimitedness suggests this -- but he isn't contradicting himself; he is simply giving different information, that it is longer than the Kaukau. If the Kaukau page is anything to go by, that is the only reason we even know that the Kaukau HAS a time limit, or a depth limit for that matter. He does the same thing when asked about the noble Kaukau, and does the same thing when writing about the noble Huna in the Encyclopedia. I think it's worth pointing out that all three of these examples originate from 2005, so Greg probably decided sometime around then that a mask's duration could be the difference between versions.

--To provide a comparison: let's say that comic 8 had said "allows the user to breathe underwater for up to 5 hours, even at extreme depths" and then the BE/BEU still said the same thing they do now. Now, obviously in this scenario Greg forgot about the whole "5 hours" tidbit, but he's saying something completely different in the BEU. If the Encyclopedias didn't exist, you could conclude that the Kaukau also lasts for 5 hours, and the only difference is the depth limit; or maybe the depth limit isn't even a difference, and the only difference is the fact that it can be shared.

--Anyway, my point is that the BEU/BE are worded different because they are giving different information. The Encyclopedias are stating that the Nuva duration is longer, while the comic actually says what the duration of the Kaukau Nuva IS (unlimited). Greg probably forgot the detail established in the comic, but I don't think its exclusion is a contradiction.

--"I was merely curious if ToaKebaka knew something that I did not (that some other masks have been stated to not have time limits), or if he was making an unjustified assumption, which might have affected his or my arguments."

--Fair enough, I apologize if that came off a little harsh. I stand by that point, but it isn't directed at you, just a good point in general.--Willess12 (talk) 21:44, 2 May 2024 (UTC)