Talk:Kanoka Launcher
Vakama's rocket pack
So the current page states that Vakama's disk launcher has a rocket pack function that relies on his elemental flame power to function, and is not an ability of the launcher itself. In this interpretation, the launcher merely provides higher efficiency repurposing element of fire as means of flight. This comes as courtesy of few Greg Farshtey statements and they are cited on the page along with BA10: Time Trap as evidence. However I have serious doubt this is the case for several reasons: 1) All information stating the element requirement comes only from Greg and his answers. 2) No published source claims, nor implies this to be the case. Even in Time Trap, there is no mention of this. 3) Published sorces DO however describe the launcher as having a rocket pack function as its own special ability. 4) Comic 19 (another published source) where Vakama first uses his jet pack contradicts this notion entirely and necessitates a lack of elemental power requirement, having the jet pack being completely independent from Vakama's fire power.
It is this last point I would like to focus on further. One of the citations says this:
Q: In B2, why does Vakama ask Nuju to use his telekinesis to lift him up to Makuta, when he could just use his Disk Launcher as a jetpack to fly up?
A: Maybe he didn't want to waste his elemental energy powering the jet pack right before such a big battle
This however is in direct opposition to what is shown in the comic where Vakama is falling to his doom thinking: If I hadn't exhausted my flame powers fighting the Morbuzakh, I could have gained a few seconds by melting throught he street.
So in this instance, Vakama was out of his element, so he could not have used it to power his jet pack. In fact it was this very jet pack that saved him from the fact he was out of power.
Next there is this description by Greg:
Q: For how long can Vakama fly using his jet-pack? 1 hour? A day?
A: Probably not that long, since he is channeling power through it and it takes concentration and energy to do that
Once again contradicted in the same comic:
I cannot end like this! There must be some way to save myself-- Some way-- What--? Yes! It's my disk launcher! I must have triggered its special power with my thoughts. Wait until I show the others!
This makes it clear that Vakama did not know his launcher had a function like this and certianly did not activate it consciously. He just thought he wanted to be saved from the fall and the launcher responded to his wish. Following this Vakama correctly surmises it is the launcher's special ability - as is described in other published sources like BEU.
Because the published sources (many of them written by Greg himself) are consistent in jet pack function being the launcher's own ability and not requiring any power, nor directed focus from the user, I believe they should overrule any remarks done by Greg on this matter in private conversations to fans, especially when they contradict the actual story. Therefore we should change the wording on the page to represent the function correctly, perhaps with a note if necessary.--ToaKebaka (talk) 10:29, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
- With the evidence you've presented, I would be inclined to agree. I would move the text over to presenting it as an ability of the tool, and address the contradiction in Greg's explanation in a note. ~ Wolk (talk) 12:20, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
The jetpack function being a special power of the launcher and it being powered by Vakama's elemental energy are not necessarily mutually exclusive. It wouldn't be the only instance of a Toa Tool's "special power" being powered by the Toa's elemental energy. Iruini's Cyclone Spear has the special power of "cyclone blast," and the BEU says using it "weakened Iruini," suggesting it was actually powered by his elemental energy, which Greg confirms to be the case. The only thing this explanation for the launcher wouldn't fit with is the comic, in which Vakama specifically thinks to himself that he used up all of his elemental energy. However, I'm not entirely sure that this sequence is canon. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this not the same scene from the movie where they fall from the Coliseum and go into the chute? It seems to be substantively/thematically the same, barring the differences of Vakama's jetpack, Nokama being hit by a Staff of Loyalty, them being chased by Vahki rather than Nidhiki and Krekka, and the chute blowing up. If it's not the same, I have no idea where it would fit. Dag (talk) 02:36, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- I have no idea where the scenes shown in the latter 2004 comics take place within the timeline of the movie, and it's something I've always been confused about. The only thing I can think of is the transition from where Matau finds out he can fly, to them walking through Po-Metru at night. But these comics ARE canon, as the fight with the Tahtorak is referenced in the books later on. And the Jetpack scene is way too different from the movie scene; aside from the differences you list, there's also the fact that Vakama and Nokama never even enter the chute before it blows up, Vakama and Nokama both fall rather than jumping, Vakama flies instead of Matau, and the Toa enter it from atop a random tower that they were on for some reason, rather than the Coliseum.--Willess12 (talk) 20:44, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- I never said the comics aren't generally canon. What I did say is that I have no idea when/where this section of the comic happens, so there's a chance that it's depicting the exact same scene from the movie. Although there are a variety of differences as we've both pointed out, the larger themes and narrative seem to be the same and at pretty much the same time as that of the movie (Vakama, Nokama, and Matau escaping from the Coliseum right after Whenua, Nuju, and Onewa get arrested, Vakama is pushed off, they make their getaway through a chute). It seems there is a considerable chance that these are, in fact, the very same sequence of events, just told differently. If that's the case, then it is of dubious canonicity, and so is the depiction/function of the jet pack. Given that, and Greg's otherwise consistent stance that it's controlled by Vakama's elemental energy, I don't think we can so blindly side with the comic on this one. I'd very much like to hear what others have to say, since this is a uniquely difficult situation. Dag (talk) 21:39, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- The similarities seem coincidental to me, and if they were going to be the same, I imagine there would be more to indicate this. For one, there would be precious little time for Nuju, Onewa, and Whenua to be brought from the Coliseum to the Prison of the Dark Hunters.
- For me, the intention seems a little clearer when looking at the book version, where it's easier to place between the end of Chapter Three and the beginning of Chapter Four in the LoMN novelization. Chapter Four opens with them riding through the chutes during the Metru Nui traffic rush, without clear indication that they're coming directly from the Coliseum. In the movie there's less of a seam since we see Vakama and Matau mount the same piece of cargo right after we see them jumping off the Coliseum balcony that we see them riding when the Dark Hunters reverse the flow of protodermis. But in the book, there's nothing indicating that this is happening right after they have left the Coliseum. Not perfect, but this seems to be the intention, anyway. We can imagine that at some point they got out of the chutes, were attacked by Vahki, had the Airship and Tahtorak battles, meant to travel through the Archives but ended up back in the chutes where the Dark Hunters reversed the protodermis flow.
- Some other things:
- If the protodermis flow is reversed at the height of traffic, one would imagine everyone had left the Coliseum by then and were back to business, which couldn't have happened while the Matoran were still just leaving the sporting events.
- There's also an odd jump in the movie where Matau falls into the protodermis flow and Vakama rides up on the cargo from behind him, which is odd considering Vakama should have been well upstream of him by that point. Perhaps we can say that the seam in the movie is right before we see Matau flying around the bend in the chute. Assuming that the movie is presenting everything strictly chronologically, the scene where the Dark Hunters are descending from the Coliseum (which isn't featured in the books) could be an exchange that happened some time later.
- Matau flying is harder to justify. In the movie, the scene where Matau is (clearly) learning to fly doesn't technically say he's flying for the first time--Vakama asks (in the movie version) if he's found his mask power, and Matau shouts (in the book version) about his mask power, so we one could say that he was flying when they'd suddenly thought he'd found a way to trigger his mask, but he had not and was just flying around. The only issue I can find with this is the book narration a little later where is says that Matau is recovering from his first solo flight.
- Some other things:
- "The similarities seem coincidental to me, and if they were going to be the same, I imagine there would be more to indicate this. For one, there would be precious little time for Nuju, Onewa, and Whenua to be brought from the Coliseum to the Prison of the Dark Hunters."
- That's exactly what happens in the latter half of the comic. They're escorted by Vahki, make an escape attempt, but reach a dead end which is a trap and where they're locked up. Dag (talk) 22:27, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how that makes sense? The comic scene with Vakama, Nokama, and Matau has to occur sometime after they escape the Coliseum, but before Nuju, Whenua, and Onewa are locked in their cell, or at most concurrent with it. In the movie, the entire sequence with Vakama, Nokama, and Matau after they escape the Coliseum is shown, which immediately cuts to Nuju, Whenua, and Onewa already in their cell (there are also the intermediate cuts to Dume and then Nidhiki and Krekka, but cutting back to Vakama, Nokama, and Matau suggests that they're still in the same chute riding the same container, no change whatsoever). For your second point, I don't think the jump is that drastic. There's no indication in the movie that they're now in a different chute (since the one they were in in the comic exploded), nor that any meaningful length of time had passed between cuts. Also, I've realized that the entire comic seems to loosely be based on the movie script, since after cutting back to Vakama, Nokama, and Matatu, they board an airship, much like the Vahki transport in the movie. Really strange. EDIT: Not sure how much it helps but, there's this. Dag (talk) 23:18, 23 April 2024 (UTC)