Talk:Gukko

Greg confirms that 8594 Gukko depicts Ka specifically. --Angel Bob (talk) 00:15, 12 May 2015 (CEST)

From Ka's bios to Kahu page

I found that we listed in Ka's bios the event of the MNOG, where Kongu actually had a Kahu bird. He calls it as "My Kahu," so we should add the section below to the Kahu page, and remove the MNOG info from Ka's bios. — Surel—Nuva (Talk) 19:35, 24 March 2017 (CET)

=== Kongu's Kahu ===
A Kahu bird was tamed by Kongu on Mata Nui. He mounted a disk launcher on his bird, and rode him in the Great War. When the Nui-Rama swarm attacked, Kongu asked Takua to be his second on the Kahu. The Kahu was later injured by the infected Toa of Air. The Kahu soon recovered and assisted Kongu in the Battle for Kini-Nui.

I added actually to the page... — Surel—Nuva (Talk) 19:46, 24 March 2017 (CET)

Seeing as Kahu are a subspecies of Gukko, do we know that Kongu's Kahu was different from Ka? -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 08:16, 26 March 2017 (CET)

In the MNOG, Kongu's Kahu is a Kahu. And Gukko Ka was released in 2003 with Jaller. The 2 models are different. — Surel—Nuva (Talk) 10:31, 26 March 2017 (CET)

Oops, that's kinda obvious huh. :P Thanks! -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 22:04, 26 March 2017 (CET)

Confirm that Ka was in MOL?

Our current citation is from a question asked by someone who already assumed that Ka was the Gukko from Mask of Light. This is apparently based upon the BS01 article, which (in the most recent edit prior to this question) already stated that Ka was the specific Gukko. Greg sort of confirms it, but with an uncertain "I think so" as his answer, suggesting he doesn't seem to remember whether or not it's actually true.

Can we find a more legitimate source that confirms that Ka is the Mask of Light Gukko? Otherwise, we run the risk of "recursive canon" here: BS01 citing Greg citing someone citing BS01 as canon. --PeabodySam (talk) 23:22, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Regarding Kahu vs Kewa vs Goko-Kahu vs Gukko

This is largely my (Turaga Of Force's) speculation on the issue.

As of 2001: There were the Kahu and the Kewa. The Kahu is the Nui-Jaga combiner. The Kewa is a bird in MNOLG that at the time did not have a set or combiner.

As of 2002: In early 2002, the lexicon stated that Taku is 'Another name for a small Kewa bird.' In mid 2002, the lexicon stated that Taku is 'A small Kewa bird.' In late 2002, the lexicon stated that a Taku is 'A small diving bird, related to the Goko-Kahu.' In late 2002, the Bionicle.com lexicon stated that the Kahu is a great hawk-like bird, the Kewa is a bird who is often tamed and ridden by the Le-Koro Matoran, and that Goko-Kahu is another name for Kewa. I do not know what the lexicon stated for Kahu, Kewa, or Goko-Kahu in early or mid 2002 because the middle part of the lexicon was not archived until late 2002. 2002 also saw the release of the Master Builder set which included a model matching the MNOLG Kewa.

As of April 2003: Bionicle.com describes the aforementioned Master Builder model as a Goko-Kahu, stating that the Goko-Kahu are also known as Kewa. It also says that Matoran have tamed them and trained them to come in response to the playing of a flute. All of this lines up with the Kewa in MNOLG. Bionicle.com describes the Taku as a close relative of the Goko-Kahu.

Summary of 2001 through April 2003 (that is, beginning of Bionicle through 2003 pre-Jaller And Gukko set): Everything lines up pretty well with the following understanding: Kewa and Goko-Kahu are two names for the same bird, which is the Kewa as seen in MNOLG and the Goko-Kahu as seen in the Master Builder set. Taku is a smaller bird related to the Kewa/Goko-Kahu. Kahu is an entirely different, much bigger bird. There is no real relation between Kewa/Goko-Kahu and Kahu aside from both having 'Kahu' in their name and both being birds. It is likely that 'Kahu' was intended to mean something along the lines of 'bird', and 'Goko' may have meant something like 'small' to differentiate the Goko-Kahu from the Kahu. The only inconsistency I see from 2001 through early 2003 is that the Taku was initially described as a small Kewa, and later as a small bird related to the Kewa.

Then in mid-2003 we got Jaller And Gukko and Takua And Pewku sets. The Pewku set completely redefines the size and build of Ussal crabs. It is my guess that, at the time, the Gukko was likely the same thing being done to the Goko-Kahu/Kewa: A rebuilt, bigger Goko-Kahu. It likely had nothing to do with the Kahu. Reasons being the similarity between 'Goko' and 'Gukko', the fact that the same thing was done with Ussal crabs, and the fact that Greg stated that MOL originally had the Turaga saying the Toa squabble like Kewa birds. Despite those 3 pieces of evidence, there is 1 piece of evidence to the contrary: Takua says he has been a second on a Gukko, but in MNOLG he was a second on a Kahu. It is my guess that this was an oversight, or perhaps it was just vague and non-exact (perhaps even meaning 'I've been a second on a bird' rather than 'I've been a second on this specific type of bird'), but more likely the people working on MOL's script either hadn't played MNOLG or didn't recall the details, and thought Takua had been a second on a Goko-Kahu when actually he had been a second on a Kahu (and had ridden a Goko-Kahu solo; remember the flute playing to fly to any Koro). All things considered, it is my inclination to believe that the Gukko was intended to replace the Kewa/Goko-Kahu as an up-scaled version (just like as was done with Pewku), NOT to replace the Kahu. So essentially we have 3 birds: The Taku (a small relative of the Kewa), the Kewa (also referred to as Goko-Kahu, and later as Gukko), and the Kahu.

As for the size changes, Greg said that Pewku is bigger in 2003 because she's older, but Pewku is at least 1,000 years old by then (she was with Orkahm on Metru-Nui 1,000 years earlier), and the 2001-2003 story only takes around a year. So for Puku (her name at the time) to be tiny in 2001 (MNOLG) and huge in 2003 would require a Pokemon-sort of evolution, not regular gradual growth with aging. But what it all comes down to is the set designers wanted a bigger set they could charge more money for, and the story team had to run with it, so Greg just said "she got bigger when she got older" (me paraphrasing) was just the story team's excuse for what the set designers did. Same thing was probably done with 2001-2002 Kewa/Goko-Kahu to 2003 Gukko, set designers wanted a bigger bird.

Then I think where the confusion comes in is the fact that the Kewa and Goko-Kahu are the same bird, but the Kahu is a completely separate bird, and the fact that the word 'Kahu' is used in both names despite being separate species confused the story team, and Greg simply didn't remember the details.

Greg has contradicted himself and/or official material other times too. And I don't blame him, Bionicle is a huge universe, and we can't expect one man to remember every single detail, even if he is one of the universe's authors. For example, on an unrelated issue, official material says each Toa had only one gold Kanohi containing all 6 powers, and Greg said that in the books and comics the gold Kanohi remains the same shape regardless of what power is being used, yet he also said that the gold Hau carried by Lehvak Va in comic 5 is Lewa's Hau. That is clearly impossible. Point being, Greg is not infallible, and sometimes he forgets details, misunderstands questions, etc, and that is completely understandable.

So as for the Kewa/Goko-Kahu/Kahu/Gukko issue, Greg has said the following:

-In March 2003, he said that the Gukko used to be the Kewa (I believe he is correct here, and this goes along with my above theory)

-A month later, he said that Gukko is the new name for Kahu (I am inclined to believe he was confused here, and that in truth, Gukko is the new name for Goko-Kahu, not for Kahu)

-Another month later, when asked if Gukko was the replacement for the Kewa or for the Kahu, he said that MOL's script replaced 'Kewa' with 'Gukko' when talking about squabbling Toa, and that was his basis for previously saying that Gukko was the replacement for Kewa (again, I believe he is correct here, and the name Gukko comes from Goko-Kahu)

-In September 2003, when asked about Takua being a 2nd on a Kahu and saying he was a 2nd on a Gukko, Greg said that lexicon listed Goko-Kahu as alternate name for Kewa, that Goko was changed to Gukko for legal reasons, and that Gukko and Kahu are therefore the same (this pretty much confirms my theory: Greg acknowledging that his basis for saying Gukko=Kahu is specifically because lexicon said Goko-Kahu=Kewa and because Goko=Gukko, confirming that Greg didn't remember that Goko-Kahu and Kahu are two separate types of birds). He also said that shape changes were done because of movie animators (I would think it would be set designers, who knows, but that's not super relevant)

-A little while later, Greg said that AS FAR AS HE KNOWS, based on lexicon, Gukko=Kahu=Kewa (again, showing that he didn't realize/remember that Goko-Kahu and Kahu are two separate types of birds)

-In 2005, Greg said that Goko-Kahu became Gukko because they weren't allowed to use Goko-Kahu name anymore

-In 2008, a fan asked Greg if BS01 could list Kahu and Kewa as breeds of Gukko and Greg said it's okay

-At one point (I don't remember the date) a fan asked Greg about the Nui-Jaga version of Kahu and Greg didn't know what the fan meant and said that Nui-Jaga are scorpions, suggesting Greg likely didn't remember that the Kahu was the Nui-Jaga combiner

So my understanding is this:

There's the Kewa aka Goko-Kahu, and there's the Kahu. In 2003 Lego wanted more money from a bigger set so they scaled up the Goko-Kahu and the Ussal, while renaming the Goko-Kahu to Gukko for legal reasons. Greg, having a huge universe to keep track of, didn't remember every little detail, and specifically, he forgot that the Kahu and Goko-Kahu are two separate species, and simply thought that Kewa/Goko-Kahu/Kahu were all the same and became the Gukko. Not remembering the details, he let the fan theory of different Gukko breeds be added to the wiki.

I understand that many (most?) fans will take whatever Greg says as absolute truth, and also prefer to go with more recent claims rather than earlier claims. Obviously in general what Greg says goes since he's part of the story team, but I think the exception to this is if it was simply an oversight, forgetfulness, etc on his part. In that case, I do not believe it should be treated as fact. (for example, we probably shouldn't consider that gold Hau in comic 5 to be Lewa's even though Greg said it is, because we know that Lewa only has one gold Kanohi and that it remains in the shape of a Miru) I am also inclined to believe the story team's original intent on any given issue rather than later counter-claims (for example, I hold that there were 1,000 Matoran on Mata-Nui, which the story team originally decided upon for the 2001 story, and Greg was still standing by as late as 2006, even though other people go with the claim that there were several thousand, a claim which came later). The intent of the story team at the time they created the story is what takes precedence as far as I'm concerned. You are welcome to disagree with me, obviously, it's fiction so it doesn't really matter. Point being, I think this whole 'Kewa and Kahu are Gukko breeds' thing comes from forgetfulness/oversight on Greg's part, not realizing that Goko-Kahu is different from Kahu, and him simply agreeing to a fan theory that tried to make sense of this forgetfulness/oversight. If we go with the actual intent of the story team and set designers, I believe that Kewa/Goko-Kahu=Gukko, size/model changed for some unknown reason (perhaps different breed/subspecies is a valid explanation here), and Kahu is a different type of bird (that's not to say there could not still be a relation between Kahu and Kewa).

Here are the relevant Greg quotes:

2003-3-20:

1. Is the "Gukko" bird related to the Goko-Kahu? Goko sounds a bit like Gukko..

The Gukko used to be the kewa bird. So I think there is a relation.

2003-4-25:

12. What exactly is a Gukko bird? Is it a mutated Kahu?

It's not a mutated Kahu, it is simply the new name for a Kahu.

2003-6-3:

6. Are you sure the Gukko used to be the Kewa, or the little birds? I think they are too big to be transformed Kewa, and you once called the Kahu Air Force the Gukko Air Force. So wouldn't that meant the Gukko replaced the Kahu? I'm very confused... :glare:

Well, all I can tell you is that in the movie, the reference to Toa squabbling like kewa birds was changed to squabbling like Gukko birds. Hence my answer.

2003-9-25:

2.) Takua says he's been a 2nd on a Gukko bird. But to my knowledge, he was a 2nd on a KAHU. Explanation?

Simple. The BIONICLE lexicon on BIONICLE.com long before the movie came out listed the Goko-Kahu as another name for the Kewa bird. Goko was changed to Gukko for legal reasons, so a Gukko and a Kahu are the same creature.

1.) I completely understand a name change for legal reasons. HOWEVER. A shape change? I look at my model of the Kahu, (the combiner Nui Jaga model.) I see a huge hawk. I look at my Gukko model. I see a Godzilla-sized humming-bird. Did Hawk change to humming-bird? Or are they two different species called by the same name?

Well, now you are getting into a totally different question. Shape changes were decided on by the animators working with the heads of the story team. That is not something I had any involvement with or know the reasons for.

2003-10-6:

Do you have a definitive answer on whether or not a Gukko is a mature Kewa or Kahu? Why couldn't LEGO just introduce the Gukko as a new species instead of pretending that Kahus had been Gukkos all along?

As far as I know, based on the lexicon, a Gukko, a Kahu, and a Kewa are all the same species.

2005-4-18:

7. The Kahu became Gukko, right?

7) We did, at one time have a bird in the story named Goko-Kahu -- we are not allowed to use the term anymore, so they became Gukko

2008-2-2:

I know that officially the Kahu and Kewa were merged into the Gukko, but they appeared in a lot of places in their previous forms. (Both had sets of them, were in the MNOLG, etc.) Seeing as how they were clearly very different creatures, do you think it would be acceptable to say on the wiki that they're two separate breeds of Gukko? It would allow for several canon sources to make much more sense...

I'd have to think about it.

Have you come to a verdict?

1) Yes, I am okay with this

And as for legal stuff, kewa and kahu are both Maori words but goko does not seem to be. A kewa is a whale in Maori and a kāhu is a hawk in Maori according to a Maori dictionary website.

Turaga of Force (talk) 01:25, 21 April 2021 (UTC)