Talk:Tobduk

From BIONICLEsector01

It looks like that Tobduk has two daggers.

Hi. I know that the picture is Tobduk's look created by a fan, but I noticed two contradicting things. In the story serials, he is said to have "a" dagger, but the picture shows him having two, as one is sheathed on his right side while he is carrying one with his left hand. Would you say that he canonically has two daggers?

Lenny7092 (talk) 23:23, 29 September 2023 (UTC)Lenny7092

In my opinion, he probably has multiple ones, but in the story he used a single one specifically.--SurelNuva (Talk) 13:03, 22 November 2024 (UTC)


Anger Absorption

Are we sure Tobduk's "anger absorption" is an actual power? Though there are a couple Greg quotes that seem to confirm it is (although it's always assumed in the question), and even that it's a trait common to his species and that they can absorb a variety of emotions, the text of Brothers in Arms seems ambiguous to me. It could be a power, but it could also just be hyperbolic language to refer to something akin to an adrenaline boost, and there's evidence that supports the latter:

"Does Axonn have a variation (near invincible when angry) of Tobduk's anger strength?"
"See his last fight with Brutaka in the novels"[1]

What Greg is referring to is this part form BL5:

"Axonn had been so consumed by a towering rage that nothing would bring him down."[2]

Which Greg confirmed elsewhere was just an adrenaline rush.

"The fight between Axonn and Brutaka, even without the Antidermis it was a pretty even match, but on a moment, Axonn lost it, the friend he once known, is gone. And then he became outraged, knocking Brutaka down in one blast. Can Brutaka also turn his anger into power?"
"I wouldn't really call it turning anger into power. I would call it the same kind of thing that can happen in humans in a time of crisis, the result (in us) of an adrenalin rush."[3]

If that's the case for Axonn, I think we have to say the same for Tobduk. Dag (talk) 00:08, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

a) Axonn's thing is more of a berserk mode. He is not feeding off of *OTHERS* anger like Tobduk. b) I don't see anything conflicting with the rest of Tobduk's species being able to feed off emotions? ~ Wolk (talk) 22:50, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
Brothers In Arms: "Although one would expect someone like him to be cold and calm, Tobduk was in a perpetual rage – he fed on anger, his and others, it made him stronger." ~ Wolk (talk) 22:52, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
This is also similar to how Kurahk is described, though Kurahk doesn't feed off of others: "His movements and actions are frenzied, as if by working himself into a rage his power will become more effective." (Promo CD), "The angrier Kurahk becomes, the more his sheer power increases." (C13), "The angrier Kurahk becomes, the greater his power" (Collector's Sticker Book). ~ Wolk (talk) 23:00, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
Yes, Axonn's is a berserker mode, as Greg confirmed in the third quote I cited. But, in the first quote, Greg confirms that ability is akin to Tobduk's, so can't the same be said of Tobduk, then? I still think the text of BiA is inherently ambiguous on this issue, but the only argument for it being a power is that it says he can feed on the anger of others. It's easy for anger from both sides in a fight to become a negative feedback, so it could be that the anger of others feds Tobduk's anger, which then feeds his berserker rage. It could also be hyperbolic as I mentioned before, like BL5 saying "nothing would bring [Axonn] down" (he doesn't literally become invincible). I'm not saying it's definitively one way or the other, just that it's unclear. You do make a decent point though about it's similarities to Kurahk's description, but I think that is still different since 1) Kurahk is literally the Rahkshi of Anger and 2) it specifically states his power increases, whereas BiA only says Tobduk becomes stronger, referring only to physical strength. Also, if this anger strength is not a power, then there's no real basis to say he or his species are capable of feeding off other emotions. If it is just some kind of berserker mode, then that only applies to anger. Dag (talk) 23:25, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Looking at the chapter it's mentioned too often for it to be metaphorical. In particular: "Despite the Matoran’s best efforts, frustration and anger would grow in him during the fight, making Tobduk even stronger." and "He forced himself to stay calm and collected, so he could deny Tobduk any extra strength." It doesn't say anything about how the anger is affecting Mazeka's ability to fight (in the latter quote, they're not even IN a fight at that point), it's literally Tobduk feeding off the growing rage. -- Dorek Talk 07:26, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the first quote, I do not read that as Greg confirming anything, he just tells whoever asked the question to refer to the book, thereby avoiding the question entirely, or at best saying Axonn does something similar. Ultimately, my argument is not about whether it is a power or an ability, but that it does not function like Axonn. If it is an ability, that still doesn't make it something that is not transferable to other members of his species (while going against a source, at that), that's like saying the rest of Nivawk's species can't fly because it's not a power. ~ Wolk (talk) 08:58, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Going to respond to both of you here.
"In particular: 'Despite the Matoran’s best efforts, frustration and anger would grow in him during the fight, making Tobduk even stronger.'...It doesn't say anything about how the anger is affecting Mazeka's ability to fight..., it's literally Tobduk feeding off the growing rage."
In this first quote, I think there's some confusion in the pronoun "him" as to who's who. Is it saying Mazeka couldn't help but get angry himself, which then fed into Tobduk's strength? Or is it saying Tobduk's anger made himself stronger to win the fight, despite Mazeka's best efforts at trying to win? I still think it's ambiguous. However, your second quote:
"...'He forced himself to stay calm and collected, so he could deny Tobduk any extra strength.'...(in the latter quote, they're not even IN a fight at that point)..."
I admit it is quite compelling, I missed it the first time reading through. It does seem to suggest Tobduk is capable of feeding off of Mazeka's anger, but I don't think it's as certain as it appears. It could also be just that if Mazeka got angry, then Tobduk would get worked up too. As you mention, they're not in a fight here, so it seems odd to me if Mazeka's main concern was really not wanting him to gain anymore strength. I read it as a tongue-in-cheek comment that Mazeka needed to keep Tobduk calm to get information. And just because Tobduk's anger strength is mentioned several times doesn't mean it's not hyperbolic. It just means that, whatever this is, is integral to his character, like the Hulk ("that's my secret, Cap', I'm always angry"). We can continue going back and forth on how we each read BiA, but I will maintain that it is ambiguous either way, so it doesn't really help either of our cases.
"Regarding the first quote, I do not read that as Greg confirming anything, he just tells whoever asked the question to refer to the book, thereby avoiding the question entirely, or at best saying Axonn does something similar."
That'd be one thing if Greg said something more general like "go read the books". But he said to go read a specific part, Axonn's last fight with Brutaka, which is exactly where we see his berserker strength. If Greg was not thinking of that, then he wouldn't have answered that way. That, to me, makes this about as strong a confirmation as a simple "yes". You even admit this possibility by adding "at best saying Axonn does something similar," which has been my only point with that quote.
1. Axonn has a similar ability to Tobduk's anger strength (per the first quote).
2. Axonn's ability is just bersker made, like an adrenaline rush in humans (per the third quote).
3. By extension of 1 and 2, Tobduk's ability is berserker mode, too.
Additionally, if there were some exceptions in the details, that Tobduk's ability worked differently by feeding of the anger of others as well, then why didn't Greg bother to mention that caveat?
"Ultimately, my argument is not about whether it is a power or an ability, but that it does not function like Axonn. If it is an ability, that still doesn't make it something that is not transferable to other members of his species (while going against a source, at that), that's like saying the rest of Nivawk's species can't fly because it's not a power."
I find it hypocritical that you say I'm going against a source (a CwGF quote that was essentially question-begging years after Greg last thought about Tobduk), while your argument that "it does not function like Axonn" goes against my first quote. As I said before, if Tobduk's anger strength is nothing more than an adrenaline rush like Axonn's, then there is no reason to think Tobduk or his species were capable of feeding off other emotions. In fact, there's an earlier OGDi quote that says it's unknown whether his species is capable of this too.
This is one of those difficult situations where, ideally, we would just ask Greg to clarify. But since that's not an option anymore, we have to make do with what we got, and what we got is one ambiguous serial, some Greg quotes that question-beg and make assumptions, and the few quotes that suggest it's like Axonn's berserker strength. Dag (talk) 16:32, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

You are right about the subject being slightly ambiguous in the first quote (although reading the earlier parts of the sentence seem to lean towards it referring to Mazeka still), I stand by my interpretation of the second lol. Mazeka's concern is about avoiding a fight (which he says a few sentences later), but he's also preparing for its inevitability. Are there other Greg quotes about Tobduk? I also feel like it was said that Tobduk knew Mazeka was there because he sensed Mazeka's anger, but that could just be the mandela effect.

But I'll also say it feels a little bit like missing the forest for the trees. There's such a specificity to it that to say it's all metaphorical seems silly. If it was just an adrenaline rush, then that's not really even an ability, so why go through the trouble of repeatedly referencing it? I don't mind if we change the language to reflect the ambiguity, and it's not like the ability name is particularly official, but it's a huge part of that chapter for a reason. -- Dorek Talk 07:39, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I also feel like while the Greg quote does indicate there is a similarity between Tobduk and Axonn, it doesn't explore to what extent they are similar. Thus, it is a leap to conclude that they work the same (it could be as lenient as "both do get strong when angry" - similar in end result, not necessarily in means), and then use that to rule out anything that contradicts that assumption. ~ Wolk (talk) 08:02, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
So, there's a Greg quote, which had been negletted from the discussion, which says Tobduk always had these powers, even before the Visorak overrun his island, which was before he became an OOMN member. Keep in mind that the quote is February 9, 2010, the serial chapter was published in 2008, but Greg tend to remember these things, even after 2 years, especially when we're asking about the characters he made up himself, so if it was just an adneraline rush, he would have said that it's not a power at all, like how he corrected fans over questions usually.--SurelNuva (Talk) 09:12, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
"Are there other Greg quotes about Tobduk? I also feel like it was said that Tobduk knew Mazeka was there because he sensed Mazeka's anger, but that could just be the mandela effect."

For full transparency, these are all the relevant Tobduk quotes (though I never found one like what you mention). I just searched "Tobduk" and went down the list. I even searched for various misspellings to cover all bases.

https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2008-2010/page181#post7236-line3,8
https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2008-2010/page225#post8964-line4-5,24-25
https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2013-2017/page446#post10984047-line2,10

The last two I didn't directly link or quote in my first post, but I did reference them at the start ("Though there are a couple Greg quotes that seem to confirm it is [a power] (although it's always assumed in the question)..."). In that I included the one Surel points out, in which the question calls it a power. As for why Greg didn't correct this person that it wasn't a power, it's simply because Greg is sometimes loose with the terms "power" and "ability" and uses them interchangeably. From what I've seen, he really only makes a clear divide when asked about the Faxon or Vezok's absorption power where it really matters (if only someone had asked Greg if Vezok could copy Tobduk, that would've settled this). However, with the couple of quotes about Axonn's ability, one asks about "turning anger into power" and the other asks if he's actually invincible (see my recent edit to Axonn's page), which are much more direct and specific. The bottom line is, there isn't a Greg quote asking whether Tobduk actually can absorb the anger of others, so to Wolk:

"and then use that to rule out anything that contradicts that assumption."

Where is the contradiction, exactly? BiA is ambiguous, and these Greg quotes don't discuss the critical issue of absorbing the anger of other beings. The only one that gets close is the CwGF quote. Even the quote Surel cites is consistent with my interpretation. We should expect Tobduk to have always had this ability, just like we can expect Axonn to have always had his. In fact, if it was something Tobduk always had, why would Greg say it was unknown if his species could do it too? If he always had it, then it couldn't have been from later OOMN experimentation. This is consistent with Tobduk just having abnormally strong berserker strength, in the same way that Axonn and Brutaka are stronger than their species in general.[1] Dag (talk) 15:50, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

The CwGF quote? The only thing it contradicts is the assumption that the absorption absolutely does not exist. It doesn't contradict how BIA describes Tobduk, not Axonn's having a similarly being stronger when enraged. Should it not be applied as evidence towards the absorption, rather than being ruled out because it supports it? ~ Wolk (talk) 17:10, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
The quote verbatim:
"Do all members of Tobduk’s species have the ability to feed off of emotions, and if so, can they feed off of emotions other than anger?"
"Yes and yes"
In actuality, this isn't asking anything about how Tobduk's power works. It's simply asking 1) if all members of the species are capable of this too and 2) if they can feed off of other emotions besides anger. The ability to feed off of emotions is assumed in the question. And there is a contradiction, but not from me. Again, the first point is contradicted by the earlier OGDi quote that says it's unknown if this is a species trait. That alone makes me want to dismiss the CwGF quote altogether, regardless of whether Tobduk himself is capable of absorbing the anger of others. Dag (talk) 17:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
Unknown means little more than there not having been a decision made at that point, though. There's plenty of other topics where Greg has initially stated things unknown, but later made a decision. ~ Wolk (talk) 05:56, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
But again, I do also have problems with the way the CwGF question is worded.
"Do all members of Tobduk’s species have the ability to feed off of emotions, and if so, can they feed off of emotions other than anger?"
The first question asks about emotions in general, not specifically anger, and it implicitly attributes this to Tobduk (that he can absorb emotions in general, not just anger), asking if the rest of his species can do this too. Then it asks more directly whether they can feed off of other emotions besides anger, but if the answer to the first part is "yes", then the second has to be also from how it's worded. It's clever question-begging.
The way I read the OGDi quote is that Greg is simply confirming it to be "unknown", either to us or the in-universe characters. If he had said "I don't know", "No idea", or "Haven't thought about it", that'd be one thing, but it still wouldn't change the fact that the CwGF quote is problematic. I don't think it's enough to overturn the earlier quote, so we can't make any certain claims about the nature of Tobduk's species from either of these quotes. Dag (talk) 14:23, 25 November 2024 (UTC)