Talk:Timeline/The Great Rescue

From BIONICLEsector01

Ordering

Before I go ahead and rearrange several large chunks of this timeline, I want to explain my reasoning for those who might object--or to see if there's good reason that I may be wrong.

The second comic from 2005, Comic 23: Vengeance of the Visorak, is infamous for throwing a wrench in an otherwise straightforward timeline, and with good reason. At surface level, it appears to be a bunch of parallel stories happening in conjunction, but when examining other 2005 media, it's clear that the second comic compiles a series of events that, knowing the scenes they derive from, cannot possibly happen all at once. It's then evident that the comic should be taken more as a roadmap (assuming it's to be taken as chronological at all) and provides an explanation for where each element of 2005's canon (with the exception of The Search for the Mask of Light) takes place.

The comic opens with a scene in Po-Metru with the same cast and conflict as the 2005 Web Comics begin, almost certainly being derived from the same event and meaning that it's probably the first event to occur right after the Hordika transformation. Next is a scene in the Coliseum, followed by a scene between Iruini and Matau that is lifted from Challenge of the Hordika, indicating that the events of the book must occur after the cancelled web comics. (This is the singular scene which, because it takes place after the 2005 Web Comics, prevents all the web and DC comics from just taking place after Challenge of the Hordika concludes, which would be a far easier timeline.:/) Following this interaction is a scene with Nokama and Gaaki in Ga-Metru that can honestly take place at any point where the two were in Ga-Metru in CotH or afterwards. The comic concludes with a storyline with Kualus and Nuju that will be the focus of the comics moving forward.

However, the BS01 timeline presented here (and maybe in other pages, I haven't checked all of them) is far more complicated, however, splicing the Nuju section from the end occurs before the discussion between Matau and Iruini--a conversation the the comic places first. The timeline then says that the Matau/Iruini discussion and the comic Gaaki and Nokama interaction occur next. This is followed by the two subsequent comics that continue the storyline started with the Nuju/Kualus section--as well as the first page of the next one, Comic 26: Hanging by a Thread. The narrative of the comics is then interrupted with the whole of Challenge of the Hordika, then The Search for the Mask of Light (which presumably could be placed anywhere), before then finishing Hanging by a Thread and Comic 27: Fractures. Web of Shadows picks up from here.

In other words, the current timeline rearranges the events presented in Vengeance of the Visorak and breaks up the comic Hanging by a Thread--events which the comic storyline present as happening all at once. This undermines not only the comic storyline, but also Challenge of the Hordika by thrusting half the comic storyline into the narrow window of time over which the book takes place, warping characters from the paths they were on in the book to fulfill their comic roles.

I suspect the reason the timeline is sorted like this is for the simple reason that the beginning of the comic interaction between Kualus and Nuju is identified as being the same as their interaction at the beginning of the book, as both involve the two of them discussing Kualus' ability to speak the languages of flying Rahi. Like the timeline presents, this particular interaction would indeed occur before the discussion between Matau and Iruini. However, unlike the comic interaction between Matau and Iruini where most lines of dialogue are clearly lifted or paraphrased from Challenge of the Hordika, I have found no overlap between the comic and the book scenes featuring Kualus and Nuju, and even the subject of their discussion differs. There's no reason to assume that they are the same event, and so it is unlikely that the final scene in Vengeance of the Visorak and any of the subsequent comics occur at different points in the timeline. Forcing the breakup of Hanging by a Thread is especially problematic as the entire comic is framed as answering the question Nuju asks in the beginning about what Matau and Nokama are up to.

Any thoughts on this? If not, I'll go ahead and reshuffle everything accordingly.

--Gonel (talk) 19:09, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

As always, at the end of the day, if it's POSSIBLE to restructure in such a way that doesn't require any huge leaps of logic, I don't mind. The specifics have probably gone over my head but a cursory glance at the sources suggests this would be fine.
That said, and my usual caveat: it might also be that they just made an error or structured things wrong. If you don't have to incorporate made-up events in order to make the version work, then go for it. -- Dorek Talk external image 01:02, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
Certainly! Yes, no leaps in logic or made-up scenes and avoids cutting up and rearranging large chunks of story that are implied to happen all at once. Probably it will be easier to explain my reasoning just by saying this:
The former arrangement of the 2005 timeline was as follows:
  1. Web of the Visorak + Comic 22 + first scenes of Web of Shadows
  2. 2005 Web Comics
  3. Scene 1 in Comic 23: Vengeance of the Visorak -- (when the order of this and the 2005 Web Comics should be reversed)
  4. Scene 5 in Comic 23 -- (which is incorrectly associated with the Kualus/Nuju exchange at the beginning of Chapter 2 in CotH--see first post)
  5. Chapters 1 and 2 of Challenge of the Hordika + Scenes 3 and 4 in Comic 23 -- (based on the exchange between Iruini and Matau about how the Rahaga were once Toa, which both have in common)
  6. Comics 24 and 25
  7. Chapters 3 and 4 of Challenge of the Hordika
  8. Page 1 in Comic 26
  9. Chapters 5-10 Challenge of the Hordika
  10. The Search for the Mask of Light? -- (There's nothing I've found to really indicate where this goes)
  11. Pages 2-12 Comic 26 and all of Comic 27
  12. The rest of Web of Shadows
The revised arrangement proceeds as follows:
  1. Web of the Visorak + Comic 22 + first scenes of Web of Shadows
  2. Scene 1 in Comic 23: Vengeance of the Visorak + 2005 Web Comics -- (based on the Po-Metru scene with Vakama, Onewa, Norik, the Roporak, and the Kikanalo that both of these have in common)
  3. Scene 2 in Comic 23
  4. Scene 3 in Comic 23 + Challenge of the Hordika -- (based on the exchange between Iruini and Matau about how the Rahaga were once Toa, which both have in common)
  5. The Search for the Mask of Light? -- (Again, it has no detected indicators it its placement, though it could just as easily go right after the 2005 Web Comics)
  6. Scene 4 in Comic 23 -- (This can't be the same scene as the one in Chapter 2 of CotH because Nokama only learns how to use her Rhotuka after she's arrived at the Great Temple, and the charging ability isn't introduced until Whenua and Bomonga are travelling through the Archives in chapter 5)
  7. Scene 5 in Comic 23 + Comics 24-27
  8. The rest of Web of Shadows
(Hopefully this is more visually appealing than the wall of text lol.)
Instead of slicing up and rearranging the comics and books, their narrative unity is maintained--with the exception of Comic 23 where such a thing is completely impossible due to its reuse of scenes found in other media. Comic 23 should then be taken as a road-map or scaffolding to the timeline as a whole.
Additional points of interest are that, while not expressly canon (nor stated as such here) yet can be inferred are that 1) since Ga-Metru is next to Po-Metru, one could see the end of Web of the Visorak (which is in Ga-Metru) transitioning smoothly into the Po-Metru scene of the 2005 Web Comics if that's where Onewa, Vakama, and Norik traveled immediately after being transformed; and 2) the end of the print comics still can plausibly be seen as transitioning into where Web of Shadows picks up (as all the Hordika are reunited with most/all the Rahaga, and Norik unintentionally causes Vakama to lose his temper)--an inference hinted at in the original timeline that is likewise hinted at here.
Anyway, that's not ruling out the possibility that some Greg quote upends all of this, but based on what I've found in the straight canon, this seems the most logical arrangement. Just wanted to make this thought process clear in case anyone down the line realizes what the reasoning is so they can know if I made a mistake or not. --Gonel (talk) 05:58, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
I might be misremembering things, but is not the last scene of Comic 23, as well as comic 24-25 present in Challenge of the Hordika? ~ Wolk (talk) 07:31, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
Actually, having reread it, never mind. ~ Wolk (talk) 10:02, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
Now, we have to notify the guys at the wall of history and cross wired geek, that the 2005 book should be rechecked with this timeline too.— Surel—Nuva (Talk) 10:15, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Search for the Mask of Light would make sense following C25 as that sets up the Rahaga possessing the mask, however that might not be concrete enough. ~ Wolk (talk) 18:15, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

From a reading perspective, it would be a strong choice, and technically there's nothing to say it couldn't happen following the end of the comics. However, the comics themselves can't really be broken up, and I think the end of the comics provides a pretty strong transition into Web of the Visorak's original story. The comics conclude where all six Hordika and most of the Rahaga have met back up again and are discussing making a decisive strike against the Visorak at the Coliseum. Norik's recollection causes Vakama to lash out at him. Finally, the last of the comics starts with Whenua questioning Vakama's decision to send Matau and Nokama off on their own (despite this being Onewa's choice). Web of Shadows can be reasonably seen as picking up where this leaves off--most of the Hordika are camped out together with most or all of the Rahaga. Vakama storms off on his own, embittered over how the others question his leadership Norik failing to bring him back to the fold.
My personal preference would be to place the right after the end of the 2005 Web Comics, since looking for these items would coincide well with the Hordika objectives at this point in 2005, where they're already seeking out things such as Turaga Dume or Airship materials. The animations also seem to present a strong unity between the Toa Hordika themselves (which only deteriorates as the year goes on), even as the Rahaga are still more aloof from the team. Additionally, the first paragraph in Chapter 4 of Challenge of the Hordika, which is "Nokama and Gaaki approached a rear entrance of the Great Temple. They had been expecting numerous Visorak patrols to be guarding the place, but to their surprise, there were none. Even more amazing, the temple was largely intact," would make sense if it were interpreted in the context of Nokama recalling the aftermath from the climax of The Search for the Mask of Light.
However, this isn't a perfect solution, nor is there really anything I can find that definitively says one thing or another. For now, I'll leave TSftMoL where it is, in lieu of any definitive evidence to my perspective. Still, I do think that the main two points where TSftMoL can reasonably be inserted are either between CotH and the comics, or right after the 2005 Web Comics. --Gonel (talk) 18:44, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
After further consideration, (and frustratingly after I already rearranged the Toa Hordika biographies) I think the most logical position for The Search for the Mask of Light is, in fact, right after the search for Turaga Dume.
  1. The Search for Turaga Dume (or the 2005 Web Comics) are the only major point in the 2005 story following the transformation of the Toa Metru into Toa Hordika where the Toa are separated from the Rahaga. The opening sequence of TSftMoL makes sense in this context, as Vakama would be seeking out these two Rahaga, Norik and Gaaki following his separate adventure with the other six Toa Hordika. It would make less sense for this to happen coming off of CotH since all of the Rahaga and Toa Hordika had been gathered by the end of the story then and Norik could have just explained the information about the Avohkii and Makoki Stones then.
  2. It would make sense for the Rahaga to want the Makoki Stone and Avohkii hunted down sooner rather than later. It is stated as soon as the opening sequence that "the Visorak want to steal the secret to the great object of power" and have cornered Norik and Gaaki to do so.
  3. Rhotuka usage. Within the books, the first introduction to Rhotuka usage is Kualus who first names them as Rhotuka spinners to Nuju's dismissal (page 14) followed by Nokama in the Great Temple against the Gate Guardian, who "had tried not to think about the strange spinner and launcher that had become part of her body after her transformation into a Hordika" (page 41). This would seem to imply that none of the Hordika would likewise be experienced enough yet to use their Rhotuka, as has they do in TSftMoL. However, as has already been established, Rhotuka are being used by Onewa as early as the 2005 Web Comics, so she would have at least seen the other Toa demonstrate their use, even if she herself avoided using them. Nokama is, in fact, the only Toa Hordika not shown using her Rhotuka in TSftMoL, which would fit into this characterization. Additionally, right after Nokama first uses her Rhotuka for the first time, Nuju is shown using his Rhotuka on a whim (page 45) followed by Whenua (page 70) and still others, who did not need the same introduction Nokama did. It makes sense that the others figured this out during their combined adventures on the searches for Turaga Dume and the Mask of Light and Nokama just happened to be the last to figure it out (the opposite, if memory serves, of the discovery of mask powers in Legends of Metru Nui).
  4. As mentioned above, searching for the Mask of Light fits with a lot of the objectives that were unfolding early in the Hordika timeline anyway.
  5. As mentioned above, the animations also seem to present a strong unity between the Toa Hordika themselves (which only deteriorates as the year goes on), even as the Rahaga are still more aloof from the team.
  6. As mentioned above, the first paragraph in Chapter 4 of Challenge of the Hordika, which is "Nokama and Gaaki approached a rear entrance of the Great Temple. They had been expecting numerous Visorak patrols to be guarding the place, but to their surprise, there were none. Even more amazing, the temple was largely intact," would make sense if it were reinterpreted in the context of Nokama recalling the aftermath from the climax of TSftMoL.
None of these are definitive arguments individually, but I think taken together (and outside of direct confirmation from our MIA Greg), it makes more sense to place it at this earlier point in the timeline. As such, without definitive evidence to the contrary, unless someone provides any reason for me not to move this to its new slot, I will make the appropriate adjustments. I'm not fond of pushing CotH further from WotV, but as Greg already established in the comics, the two stories did not take place directly after each other anyway. Moreover, CotH is still the first story where the Rahaga and the Toa Hordika really worked together, so it makes sense for the Toa Hordika to still be making the discoveries that they do in the book.
--Gonel (talk) 03:53, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
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