Talk:Mask of Clairvoyance

Activated or always on?

One Greg quote says the mask has to be activated, but another says it's always on at a low level. Dag (talk) 04:22, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Interesting, I'd say when I first read Dwellers in Darkness, I thought she can't really control when the mask shows her the visions. But the "must be activated" quote came first, and it's not an organic mask with its own consciousness, so idk.--Surel (Talk) 05:32, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Wolk, you can't say "story takes precedence" when the story contradicts itself. The Powers That Be says "[Gaaki] regretted the fact that she had no real control of her Mask of Clairvoyance. It would give her a flash of the near future when it chose to, not at her bidding," while Dwellers In Darkness says "[Gaaki] was focused inward, using the power of her Mask of Clairvoyance" If The Powers That Be were correct, that "she had no real control" over it, then the situation in Dwellers In Darkness would not be possible. Second, The Powers That Be does not say it is always on at a low level, but that "it would give her a flash of the near future when it chose to." Always on and activating on its own are two different things. Even with masks that are always on, namely the Inika organic masks, the user's willpower has some effect at controlling it, whereas with the Mask of Clairvoyance as described by The Powers That Be, it does not. While this situation is by no means simple, I see no reason to side with the one that upends everything we know about Kanohi generally. Dag (talk) 01:20, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I wasn't aware of that line from DID. And yes, you are right, activing on its own and being on at a low level are two separate things. ~ Wolk (talk) 01:30, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

"It's been a long time since she used her power," answered the Toa Hagah of Fire. "Or, rather, since it used her. It's never easy."

Dwellers in Darkness also suggests that the Mask activates on its own, and it does NOT say she actually consciously activates the Mask -- only that the power is being used. I agree, the fact that it is always on doesn't fit with what we know, but it seems that both stories indicate that it activates on its own.

Also, on a completely unrelated note, it can reach the user in an illusion. Greg says it would create cognitive dissonance, not that it can't reach them. Willess12 (talk) 04:54, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

I have been aware of that line from DiD for a while, but I am not convinced. Norik's comment about the mask using her simply refers to the fact that the user has no control over what they are shown and that it takes great mental strain to activate and control, hence Gaaki's intense focus, as Greg explained. Regardless, the fact is that Gaaki attempted to activate her mask power, and she succeeded. That does not seem compatible with having "no real control" over it. And DiD does say "she was...using the power of her Mask of Clairvoyance." Unless this mask somehow operates differently from every other mask, she must have consciously activated it. Dag (talk) 05:15, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

That is the problem: it DOESN'T say she attempted to activate her mask power and succeeded. It only says she is using the mask's power. It doesn't say she was actively trying to look into the future, or decided to activate the mask's power. She is simply stated to be using it.

Yes, it operates differently from every other (inorganic) mask we've seen. That is stated in the story, and the only thing we have contradicting that is a greg quote that is contradicted by a different one a few months later. The story itself only ever states that the mask activates on its own.

Also, just for clarity so I don't accidentally start an edit war, I'm going to re-edit the bit about an illusion since that doesn't seem to be disputed, but I'll wait for a response before editing the "consciously activated" bit. So if you see me editing the page again, that's all I'm doing.Willess12 (talk) 06:03, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Let's back up and review DiD and TPTB in context.

DiD: "Only Toa Gaaki stood off to the side, her eyes fixed on the ocean but unseeing. The Toa Hagah had seen her like this before. She was focused inward, using the power of her Mask of Clairvoyance to see things they could not. Now she stiffened, cried out, and turned toward the others."

TPTB: "Gaaki didn’t know Kopaka well, but she had heard enough stories to realize that an admission like that meant serious trouble. Not for the first time, she regretted the fact that she had no real control of her Mask of Clairvoyance. It would give her a flash of the near future when it chose to, not at her bidding. She didn’t need a mask power, though, to see how drained Kopaka looked."

(I've omitted Norik's line about the mask using Gaaki from DiD since, as Greg explained, he had no intention of implying the mask was always on or activated on its own.)

Regardless of the issue of the mask being consciously activated, and for the sake of argument, let's say you're correct that both suggest it is always on/activates on its own, they still contradict each other. DiD suggests that, in that moment, Gaaki intended for the mask to activate then, and it did. Either this was a total coincidence, or, more reasonably, she must have had some control over when it activates. That is at total odds with TPTB, which says "she had no real control." So, if DiD says that Gaaki had some control over when the mask activates, what does it suggest about the extent of that control?

Again, per the Greg quote I cited above, the mask's power is very taxing, and seemingly hard to activate per Gaaki's deep focus and meditation. That does not sound like a mask power that would always be on at a low level (compare this to the Inika masks, which were constantly on since the Inika lacked the experience or control to know how to turn them off), so that possibility is eliminated. But perhaps the mask is not always on, but still can activate on its own, which the wording of TPTB suggests. I must emphasize that I never once said that the description of the mask given by TPTB is 100% objectively and without a doubt wrong. What I did say in my initial post was that this situation of serial v.s. serial contradiction is no easy matter, and going by the Tiers of Canonicity alone, it could go either way since they are tiered equally. However, I think we must also take into consideration how Kanohi generally work, since there's no reason why this mask should operate any differently. Dag (talk) 15:37, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

I think I see the source of our disagreement here. I agree, if you take the scene in Dwellers in Darkness just by itself, it does seem like Gaaki is trying to activate her mask power, and then succeeds. However, my argument is that it isn't entirely clear. Is she staring off into space TRYING to see a vision of the future, or is she ALREADY seeing a vision of the future, and simply hasn't vocally reacted to it yet? The wording "she was using her mask power" and not "she was trying to use her mask power" seems to imply the latter, but it is frustratingly ambiguous.

On the other hand, the description in The Powers That Be is more specific: the mask works when it wants to, not at her bidding. I will admit, there is still some ambiguity there: does it activate on it's own, with no input from her? Or is it a case where she can try to use it whenever she wants, but it may or may not work?

Given this contradiction, that's why I worded the page, and the note, the way I did: they have no control over when they see the future. This works with either interpretation of The Powers That Be; either the mask activates on its own, or you have to consciously activate it, but it only works when it has something to show you. Also, as I said at the beginning, there is enough ambiguity in the scene in Dwellers in Darkness that I don't think it's accurate to say "the description in The Powers that Be contradicts what we see in Dwellers in Darkness" as the page currently does.

As for the Greg statements, it's hard to address that when the two contradicting statements happen within a month of each other. However, I agree, the "it's always on" statement doesn't fit with what we know about Kanohi, and while I personally like the "it activates on its own" interpretation, there's nothing to actually support this. It would still fit with what we know about Kanohi, since it would still require concentration -- it just FORCES you to concentrate on it when it activates -- but there's no real evidence for it, it is only a neat head-canon, and we DO have a Greg quote saying it has to be consciously activated. This would seem to support the second interpretation of TPTB, that you can try and use it whenever you want, but it may or may not show you something.

With all this taken into account, there are three ways the mask usage can be viewed:

1. You can activate it, and it then shows you a vision of the future, even if you have no control over what it is that you see. This is suggested by DiD, but not actually shown, and it is directly contradicted by TPTB, so it shouldn't be used.

2. It activates itself, with no input from you. This fits everything we know, EXCEPT for the Greg quote saying it must be consciously activated. While it is supported by the Greg Quote that it is always on at a low level, THAT Greg quote contradicts the numerous others that say mask usage requires concentration. Edit: however, it turns out there is a different Greg Quote that suggests this possibility even more directly; see addendum.

3. You activate it when you want, but it may or may not show you something. This would make it the only mask that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't, but it fits everything we know. Even the "it's always on at a low level" quote, could mean that it is always waiting to receive a vision of the future, which it will give the user if/when they choose to use the mask. It is a stretch, but that quote doesn't really need to be forced to fit anyway, since it is contradicted by many others.

I am going to be re-editing the page, though slightly differently this time, as I feel it's the most accurate way to state it. The only concrete statement we have in the story is "you have no control over it, it shows the future when it wants to, not at your bidding" so that is what the page should say. The note can address the conflicting Greg quotes, and the ambiguity in both descriptions. The page shouldn't say "it activates when it wants to, with no input from the user" since even though I and probably many others may like that interpretation, it is contradicted by Greg and is not supported by the story. However, it also shouldn't say "the description in TPTB contradicts the scene in DiD" when both are ambiguous at best.

Addendum: okay, and after writing all of that, I went to see if there were any other Greg quotes on the matter, and of course now I find yet another Greg Quote that makes things even MORE complicated than they already were. This one says that the user CAN'T make it show them a vision of the future, which suggests that the mask has to activate on it's own, though the question was admittedly asked under the "always on at a low level" assumption. So there actually IS support for the "it activates on its own" theory, albeit weak support. Regardless, this definitely supports my argument that the page shouldn't say "it must be consciously activated", since we now have one quote saying "it must be consciously activated" and another saying "you can't consciously activate it". I'll be adding this to the note as well.--Willess12 (talk) 20:16, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

"I agree, if you take the scene in Dwellers in Darkness just by itself, it does seem like Gaaki is trying to activate her mask power, and then succeeds. However, my argument is that it isn't entirely clear."

If it's not clear, then there's no discernably proper way to read and understand it. If it seems like Gaaki is trying to activate her mask power and then succeeds, then the only way you and I reached that conclusion is from the text. Either it's ambiguous, or it is not. Since we agree that DiD seems to suggest Gaaki has control over when her mask activates, I would ask you what reasonable doubt you have to say that it's also not clear.

"The wording 'she was using her mask power' and not 'she was trying to use her mask power' seems to imply the latter, but it is frustratingly ambiguous."

I don't understand this reasoning. I don't see an inherent difference between "she was using her mask power" and "she was trying to use her mask power" that is relevant to this issue. The question is whether Gaaki has any control whatsoever over when her mask activates. In either case, she was still using/trying to use it, not the other way around (and Norik's line saying it used her does not suggest it activates on its own, as I've already explained). Whether she was trying to use or already using the mask is irrelevant, since my point was more that it would otherwise be an extreme coincidence for the mask to activate on its own here. If it had suddenly activated with no control or warning, Gaaki wouldn't have had time to go stand away from the others and focus, especially given how debilitating these visions seem to be. The setup of this scene doesn't read like Gaaki was minding her business and suddenly got a rush of the future, but that she decided to use her mask power and see what she could glean from it to help the Hagah.

"On the other hand, the description in The Powers That Be is more specific: the mask works when it wants to, not at her bidding. I will admit, there is still some ambiguity there: does it activate on it's own, with no input from her? Or is it a case where she can try to use it whenever she wants, but it may or may not work?"

Being more specific doesn't necessarily mean being more correct. But again, since I have no absolute proof that TPTB is wrong, let's assume that it's correct and see where that logically takes us. As I already explained, this is fundamentally different than the "always on at a low level" organic masks (the organic masks "always being on" was contingent specifically on them being sentient, and that is not the same as activating on its own whenever it decides to), so the Greg quote about the mask always being on at a low level can't be used to support TPTB. This would also make it the only mask known in canon that operates this way, and there's no good reason as to why it would. Again, the organic masks (some, at least) were always on because they were sentient and working off the mask's will too, not just the user's. What reason would the Mask of Clairvoyance have to be unique in disregarding what we know about how Kanohi generally function? As for the ambiguity you mention, I again don't think there's any meaningful difference. The point is that "she had no real control," which contradicts the idea of Kanohi relying on the user's willpower to activate and maintain.

"we DO have a Greg quote saying it has to be consciously activated. This would seem to support the second interpretation of TPTB, that you can try and use it whenever you want, but it may or may not show you something."

The Greg quote does not support TPTB, even your interpretation of it. Greg said "she has to turn the mask on." The only meaningful way to interpret this is turning the mask's power on, which in this case is the Mask of Clairvoyance's ability to grant visions of the future (especially when the question asks "can Gaaki choose to activate and receive these visions"). Gaaki activating it only for it to not grant her a vision does not fit with that.

"I find yet another Greg Quote that makes things even MORE complicated than they already were"

I wouldn't put to much stock into this quote since the question assumes it's always on at a low level, which is not only in contention but is again not supported by either DiD or TPTB.

I'd rather not have this become just a back and forth between us two, so I'll probably refrain for the time being and see what others might have to say. Dag (talk) 00:11, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Coming back to this since I just realized something I missed the first time. The first quote, the one that says Gaaki has to consciously activate the mask, is from Jul 31, 2008. Dwellers in Darkness Chapter 1 released on that same day. Not only is this the earliest answer, but it's also the one closest to when Greg was first formulating how the power worked, so it would have been fresh on his mind. Given also that we agree that DiD reads as if Gaaki activated the mask, I think this is enough to conclude that DiD clearly suggests the mask has to be consciously activated, which puts it directly at odds with TPTB. That makes this a more difficult situation than simply contradicting Greg quotes, but contradicting serials.

The next Greg quote, from Aug 24 2008, is the one where Greg first says the mask is always on at a low level "like the Suletu". Barring the problem with this quote I mentioned on the Kanohi talk page, it disagrees with both DiD and TPTB. DiD says Gaaki has to activate it, while TPTB says it activates on its own, but by no means "always on, like the Suletu," so we can disregard this one. We can also disregard the third Greg quote from Sept 2008 since the question already assumes it's always on at a low level, which cannot be true. So really, this just comes down to DiD vs TPTB.

I think we should side with DiD. Although the narration of TPTB does present a difficult problem, we don't actually see the mask being used here. If we were to consider TPTB to be erroneous, then nothing about the actual story changes. This would even be less bold to do than when we changed Gatherer's Rhotuka to Kanoka, which he used in No One Gets Left Behind. Also, DiD has one Greg quote in support of it, while TPTB has none. TPTB Ch 1 was written in July 2010, nearly two years after any of the Greg quotes about the mask, so maybe Greg just forgot and looked up its power on BS01, which already said by that time the user has no control over when they get visions [1]). I'm going to edit this page back to siding with DiD, but I will leave the note and disputed tag. Dag (talk) 22:49, 11 November 2024 (UTC)