Talk:Rhotuka

Infobox

To prevent an edit war, I think the infobox should be changed to Power, not Ability. As I mentioned in my previous edit summary, it doesn't make sense to call Rhotuka-making an ability anymore than the five senses are abilities. Yes, these are technically abilities, but every MU being is capable of it granted they have a launcher, so it's not worth noting ("when everyone's super, no one will be"). What's important are the different powers each being has for their Rhotuka. If this page is about the Rhotuka itself, then that's all the more reason to change it. It's not about the ability to make Rhotuka. The other problem with calling it an ability is you would then have to distinguish between natural launcher users, where it actually is an ability, vs artificial launcher users, where it's more of a tool. I would also be fine with the infobox being changed to Object, but the thing is Rhotuka are just wheels of energy, not really material objects. Dag (talk) 17:31, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

I would lean towards object in that case. Immaterial objects are still objects, right? In any case the Rhotuka itself is not a power, it is something that contains a power and personally I'm sort of tired of people thinking the ability to make Rhotuka is a power. Alternatively, we rename it to Rhotuka Powers... I do think the page currently does read most like one about an object. ~ Wolk (talk) 18:54, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

I was going to suggest renaming, though I do think the notes about Rhotuka themselves and the natural/artificial launchers are worth having. We could just put that stuff at the beginning, similar to the Kraata Powers page, I guess. Dag (talk) 18:58, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Explosive Visorak spinner

In the OGD quote, the explosive Rhotuka Visorak is specifically called to be the one managing the launcher from the BfMN playset, not the one from the end of WoS. All the playset's descriptions so far I've seen never calls the rhotuka explosive, it doesn't even mention the power at all, hence why I out the CN tag there. The Visorak spinner from the end of WoS was never said/asked to be the one firing the playset's rhotuka afaik.--SurelNuva (Talk) 17:34, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps, but then that would leave the WoS as a separate one which also seems unlikely? ~ Wolk (talk) 18:48, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Didn't the book described it as a shadow blast? Or am I misremembering it?--SurelNuva (Talk) 23:01, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

My bad, there was a quote I missed.--SurelNuva (Talk) 16:54, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

Kahgarak

I think Kahgarak's two Rhotuka powers should be combined into one. The only sources that distinguish the two are Rahi Beasts (which is from an in-universe perspective and could be wrong) and one Greg quote. But BA8, the BEU, and Brickmaster magazine seem to merge the two. Arguably Comic 24 as well. It explicitly says the spinner opened up a gateway to the zone of darkness but also that it pulled the Kahgarak inside, which sounds more like the first power. At the very most I think these are just different applications of the same power. Dag (talk) 16:15, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

I don't know Wolk, what did you mean by "Not what the book says at all" I literally quoted the book in the summary. It says "To an outsider, it appears as if the Kahgarak's enemy has simply be swallowed by the shadows and has disappeared." That's what happens in the comics that Dag mentioned. It went into the Field of Shadows/Zone of Darkness.--SurelNuva (Talk) 16:24, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

The books presents it as "a field of shadow" (not capitalized) created around the target, with no mention of the Zone of Shadow with is mentioned in the next paragraph, capitalized. However, the depiction in BA8 and the Greg quotes show that they are in fact brought into the Zone of Shadow. In BA8, when a Rahkshi is struck by it, Bomonga repeats the same thing, saying the Rahkshi is still there, but unable to be seen/interacted with, and unable to see or hear, but when Whenua and Bomonga are later struck in the same book it is obvious that they are in the Zone of Shadow, thus I think the Rahaga were simply wrong. As for them being the same ability, I agree that they are related, but I don't think they are the same. One seems to act like the Olmak, creating a direct gateway, which you can walk through, lasting for several seconds. The other seems to open a gateway (per Shadow Play's description) for only an instant, with no escape, pulling them inside (again, per Shadow Play). Since the book distinguishes these two, I think we should too.

The Rahkshi made another effort to slip past its opponent, only to be batted away by one of the Kahgarak’s powerful legs. At this point, the spider evidently became bored with the whole conflict. It launched its Rhotuka spinner at its foe. When the spinner struck, a field of shadow suddenly appeared around the startled Rahkshi. An instant later, the Rahkshi was gone, swallowed completely by the darkness.

Whenua ducked as the Kahgarak’s spinner flew past and struck a display case. A moment later, the case and its contents were swallowed by the darkness.

One of the Kahgarak launched again. Whenua shoved Bomonga out of the way as the wheel of energy flew at him. It narrowly missed the Toa, flying on to strike the second Kahgarak. It, too, was claimed by the darkness.

The Toa Hordika didn’t finish his sentence, at least not in the world he knew. The Kahgarak managed to get off a spinner even as it fell, striking Whenua. The darkness effect encompassed both Toa and Rahaga, plunging them into shadow.

On a pile of rubble nearby, the Kahgarak had seen enough. It sent its spinner flying through the air at the Tahtorak.
Stirring, Krahka saw the whirling wheel of energy heading for the Tahtorak. [...] At the last split second, she veered off and hurled herself at the Zivon.
The spinner struck. The field of darkness opened to consume the Tahtorak, drawing the Rahi into eternal shadow. At that instant, Krahka struck the Zivon full force, driving it into the Tahtorak. With all three in physical contact, the shadow swallowed them whole. In an instant, they were gone.

~ Wolk (talk) 16:48, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

Examples of the latter use case:

“Light!” Whenua shouted, pointing up ahead.
The Kahgarak paused for a moment before resuming its march. “Keep quiet,” said Bomonga. “If it hears us and turns back…”
Whenua understood, but it was hard for him to curb his excitement. A pinprick of light had appeared up ahead in a world where all was dark. The Kahgarak was moving right toward it. Whenua felt certain it had to be an exit.
Bomonga was keeping a careful eye on the creature. If that point of light was a gate, it would vanish the instant the creature passed through it. They would have to go through right behind or risk never finding the point again. He watched as the light grew bigger and brighter, mentally counting down the seconds.
“Run!” he said abruptly, racing off to reach the Kahgarak. Taken by surprise. Whenua was a few steps behind. The creature reached the light and passed through. Bomonga and Whenua dove. barely making it through before the gateway disappeared.

Bound with webbing, Whenua and Bomonga could only watch as the Kahgarak opened another gateway into the field of darkness. Visorak backed away, scurrying for cover. Whenua wished he could join them as the Zivon began to emerge.

~ Wolk (talk) 17:04, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

My capitalization of "Field of Shadows" was out of habit, but my point was that the book even implies, even though the Rahaga were incorrect, that the Zone of Darkness exists paralell to the reality. They didn't see the Rahkshi, but it was there, on a parallel plane of existence, and the Rhotuka is the way/portal out of there. And who knows, maybe that's how pocket dimensions works there. They exist on the same reality, but on different plane of existence, unlike alternate dimensions, which exist on different realities, but meant to be on the same plane of existence.--SurelNuva (Talk) 17:39, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

When I said they're the same power, I meant they generally do the same thing, which is transport someone/something to the Zone of Darkness, but how it does so is different depending on how the spinner is used. It can either open a portal for anyone to pass through, or it forcibly sends a target to the Zone if they are hit by the spinner. You agree that they are related, so I don't see what the problem is. Dag (talk) 17:54, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

Also, this is no different than Boggarak's spinner, and that one isn't explicitly worded as having two different variations. Dag (talk) 17:59, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

Because one has a longer lasting gateway, the other only lasts for a moment and pulls in the target. 10 seconds is quite a long time, and there is a noticeable disparity between how it is described when it hits someone (an effectively instant effect) versus the portal used for leaving the Zone of Darkness. And as was pointed out, Shadow Play does state the pulling one opens a gateway as well so I don't see how that is misleading. I was going to get to the Boggarak spinner, and I was thinking of describing the two different behaviors separately. From what I recall, several sources claim Boggarak have two powers, although it seems more to be the same Rhotuka behaving differently depending on the medium. ~ Wolk (talk) 18:13, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

Yes, the comic does say it is a gateway, but it's the only source that describes it as such for the first case. In every other example you listed, it just says the target is swallowed by darkness. If you want to say the two are functionally different, then saying they both open a gateway defeats that, or at least state more clearly that it's not a gateway in the same sense as the other case. For example, why would this portal behave differently (pulling a target in) when it hits a target vs when it doesn't? I cited the comic in my first post as being an example of how it seems to conflate the two usages. Dag (talk) 18:25, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

It's not that one has a longer lasting gateway; the gateway simply dissapears as soon as someone goes through it.

If that point of light was a gate, it would vanish the instant the creature passed through it.

Bomonga and Whenua dove, barely making it through before the gateway disappeared.

If it is used on a target, the target is forced through. If not, the portal stays open until someone goes through. Either way, it disappears as soon as it is used.

We do know that a spinner can be controlled in what it does by the user, to some extent. Some spinners are just "hits a target, does a thing", but then you have spinners like the Hordika ones, which contain their elemental powers. Roodaka as well, can control her mutations and undo past mutations.--Willess12 (talk) 18:30, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

Hmm, good point. I suppose that would solve the difference, so it is just that it pulls if it hits something and was intended to hit something, I suppose? ~ Wolk (talk) 18:36, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

Even then, others like Whenua and Bomonga were still able to go through right after the Kahgarak despite the portal closing right behind it, which is kind of what I was trying to get at about saying both open a portal. That should also be true for the other case, that others could possibly pass though despite the portal closing right after the target goes through, but it's not presented that way. Dag (talk) 18:45, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

I'd argue it's less "it's not presented that way" and more "it's not clear". No one is ever trying to get into the Zone of Shadows, so they're not going to try and follow. It's possible that if someone tried to pass through the portal right after it sucked someone else in, and they were quick enough, they could; there's no evidence to support or deny it, because it's not something anyone ever attempts. Unfortunately, the scene where Whenua and Bomonga manage to escape is unclear as to how long between the Kahgarak going through and Whenua and Bomonga following. The scene where Krahka, Tahtorak and Zivon are pulled in is also unclear -- does it pull them all in because they were all in contact when the spinner struck, or does it pull them in because Krahka forces them into contact before the portal closes? --Willess12 (talk) 19:28, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

It's exactly that uncertainty which makes me think we shouldn't state matter of factly that it opens a portal in both cases. To me, it's simply the same power but with two conditionals, like Boggarak's. It operates one way in one situation, and differently in another. Dag (talk) 19:42, 16 March 2025 (UTC)