Talk:Element Lord of Sand
Gender
The only source that suggests the EL of Sand is female is this CwGF suggestion from OnionShark to have the ELs of Sand and Earth be female and provided unconfirmed theories as to why. However, this is problematic for two reasons:
1. OnionShark told Greg “you once said that the ELs were of mixed gender,” but what he said was “my hunch is mixed gender,"[1] indicating it wasn't confirmed (which is supported by other quotes), when OnionShark assumed it was.
2. All Greg said in response was that it "makes sense," which is not strong confirmation. When BS01 has had a history of wanting strict yes or no answers,[2][3] I find it hard to believe that a single "makes sense" answer years after BIONICLE's cancellation was enough to consider this canon.
Below is a comprehensive timeline of relevant sources pertaining to the genders of the ELs.
- Mar 18, 2009: Greg confirms that there were no female Skrall Leaders.[4]
- May 1, 2009: RotGB Ch 4 is available.[5]
- Confirms the ELs of Fire and Ice are male.[6]
- May 19, 2009: "My hunch is mixed gender."[1]
- May 21, 2009: "Haven't decided yet [if the EL of Water is female]."[7]
- May 22, 2009: Greg refers to the ELs as “he/she.”[8]
- Jun 13, 2009: Greg again confirms that there were no female Skrall Leaders.[9]
- Jun 16, 2009: Greg again confirms that there were no female Skrall Leaders.[10]
- Jul 8, 2009: "I haven't decided [if any of the ELs are female]."[11]
- Jul 13, 2009: Greg refers to the EL of Sand with male pronouns.[12]
- Jul 15, 2009: "No, I haven't [decided if any are female]."[13]
- Jul 17, 2009: "I have not decided if any of them are female, though."[14]
- Aug 3, 2009: RotGB Ch 6 is available.[15]
- Aug 27, 2009: Greg refers to the ELs of Sand and Water with male pronouns.[18]
- Aug 27, 2009: Greg confirms the EL of Rock was originally a Leader class Skrall.[19]
- Because there were no female Skrall leaders, this implies the EL of Rock is male.
- Sep 23, 2009: RotGB Ch 7 is available.[20]
- Sep 24, 2009: Greg refers to the EL of Sand with male pronouns.[23][24]
- Oct 5, 2009: Greg refers to the EL of Rock with male pronouns.[25]
- Oct 17, 2009: Greg again confirms the EL of Rock was originally a Leader class Skrall.[26]
- Nov 4, 2009: MNGtBM is available.[27]
- "But any thoughts of an alliance quickly shattered as each Element Lord made clear that he or she intended to control the spring when the fighting was over." (p. 3)
- Nov 12, 2009: RotGB Ch 8 is available.[28]
- Although the EL of Rock is in this chapter, his gender is not specified.
- Feb 10, 2010: JE’s Prologue is available.[29]
- "Choosing six warriors, one from each village, the Great Beings endowed them with the power to control, respectively, fire, ice, water, plant life, rock, and sand. They altered the warriors’ very body chemistry to make each closer to being one with his element."[30]
- Apr 16, 2010: "No, [I can't say they were all male] because I have not seen all six illustrated."[31]
- Jun 8, 2010: AOSR is available.[32]
- Confirms the EL of Rock to be male.[33]
- The first (and only) time all the ELs, including Sand, are illustrated.
- Aug 4, 2010: "[Whether the ELs are all male is] not something that has been determined yet."[34]
- Aug 10, 2010: Greg refers to the EL of Sand with male pronouns.[35]
- Jan 31, 2011: "[Whether the ELs are all male is] not something that has been determined."[36]
Although the contention is only about the EL of Sand, it's enlightening to see the wider context of the other ELs. For example, one might argue that Greg repeatedly referring to the EL of Sand with male pronouns is just a force of habit, like with the EL of Earth.[37] However, he referred to the ELs of Water and Rock with male pronouns before confirming them to be male in official story. Also, while Greg said referring to the "Ancient Evil" in 2006 with male pronouns isn't confirmation that it is male,[38] it was confirmed to be Teridax,[39] who is male. The same thing happened with Ahkmou.[40] Also, it’s very likely Greg used male pronouns for the EL of Earth because the idea that she was female was not his own and forgot about it, rather than from a consistent habit of his. In fact, there isn’t strong evidence that Greg defaults to the male pronoun for an ungendered character. He often uses “he/she,”[41][42][43][44][45][46][47][48][49][50][51][52][53][54][55] which implies Greg’s consistent use of the male pronoun for the EL of Sand was intentional.
Another argument for leaving it ambiguous might be that MNGtBM says "he or she," but this isn't strong evidence. First, JE's Prologue changes this to just "his." Second, a similar situation happened when Greg referred to the Barraki traitor in 2007 as "he/she,"[56] but this was just because he forgot that all the Barraki were male[57] (this again goes against the idea that Greg defaults to male pronouns).
While Greg did say multiple times and as late as 2011 that it wasn't confirmed that all the ELs were male, this could be a forgetcon. The EL of Sand is not mentioned explicitly in those quotes. Sand was the only one left unconfirmed at that point, but it’s possible Greg had others in mind at the time, forgetting they were already confirmed to be male. We simply don't know for sure. Also, it's peculiar how he repeated this answer even after AOSR, which illustrated the six ELs, was released.
I know there's going to be contention from this, but there just isn't a strong enough case to have the EL of Sand be female, or even leave it ambiguous. In all honesty, the EL of Sand should have never been considered female given the weakness of the singular source that supports it. All this to explain why I have edited the page to match Greg’s treatment of the EL of Sand, using male pronouns. Sorry for the long post, but it's necessary when changing something that's been considered canon for five years. Dag (talk) 22:02, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
- After reading this, JE's prologue usage of "his" struck me as a possible stylistic simplification, so I searched if there was other examples in Greg's writing. Turns out it's kinda rare to have a sentence in the style of "each of [mixed gender group] action [gendered pronouns]". I only found three examples.
- Not really enough data to lean any way, but Greg has already made this simplification once, so that makes me a little bit uneasy about how conclusive JE's prologue is.
- Another thing I would like to point out is that MNGtBM stating "he or she" is really different to the OGD example. MNGtBM is a published book, it has a higher quality standard than Greg quotes.
- As I see it, we should probably leave it ambiguous. Even if we didn't, MNGtBM mention of a female Element Lord is probably worth mentionning somewhere as trivia.
- --maxim21 07:48, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- When taking everything else into consideration (Greg's consistent use of the male pronoun for the EL of Sand, the lack of evidence Greg defaults to male pronouns for an ungendered character, and the weakness of the one CwGF quote that suggests the EL of Sand is female), I don't see how this can still be considered ambiguous. I would not be opposed to adding a trivia point (would probably be best on the Element Lord page, if at all), but I don't think it's worth it. Dag (talk) 14:49, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
Vorox
According to this quote, the EL of Sand was never a Vorox: https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2008-2010/page209#post8358-line6,12 Is there a quote that says otherwise? ~ Wolk (talk) 01:06, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
- https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2008-2010/page328#post13111-line3,11
- https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2008-2010/page201#post8021-line3-5,18-20 hmm... ~ Wolk (talk) 01:11, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
- I found this quote that suggests they were always called Vorox, but I couldn't find the original confirmation. Dag (talk) 15:30, 30 September 2022 (UTC)