Talk:Bohrok Kaita
Names
I am not very familiar with using wiki so I apologize if I am doing anything wrong or against BS01 etiquette by posting here. I have a few thoughts on Bohrok Kaita and Bohrok Va Kaita and how they are referenced on BS01. The Bohrok Kaita article covers standard Bohrok Kaita and Bohrok-Kal Kaita, but not Bohrok Va Kaita, and there doesn't seem to be a Bohrok Va Kaita page. Further, there are individual pages for each of the two Bohrok Kaita, but not for either of the Bohrok Va Kaita. Greg has said that Bohrok and Bohrok Va possess the ability to form Kaita, but the Kaita have never appeared in story, making the Bohrok Kaita and the Bohrok Va Kaita potentially canon (so, canon or not canon depending on whether or not you count 'hasn't existed but could exist' as canon). Point being, the level of canonity for Bohrok Kaita and Bohrok Va Kaita are equal, so either both should have articles or neither should have articles. So I believe Bohrok Va Kaita should either be addressed in the Bohrok Kaita article, or have their own article. Further, the individual Bohrok Kaita articles (Bohrok Kaita Ja and Bohrok Kaita Za) are named based on the corresponding Bohrok-Kal Kaita (Ja and Za). However, Greg has said that, as far as he knows, the Bohrok Kaita have not been named. It seems that whoever created the articles just assumed they would be called Ja and Za because the Kal Kaita are called such, but Greg has specifically stated they have NOT been named. Am I missing something, or was this an error on the part of whoever created the BS01 articles?
Here are several sources of Greg saying he knows of no names of the Bohrok Kaita and Bohrok Va Kaita, suggesting that the BS01 names of Bohrok Kaita are not canon: https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page10#post386 https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page7#post259 https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page4#post140
Greg saying Bohrok and Va cannot form Kaita as far as he knows (presumably safe to disregard this, because he has more recently said they can be formed, but have not been formed in story): https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page2#post68
Greg saying Va can form Kaita: https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page318#post12683
Greg saying Bohrok Kaita and Va Kaita are canon: https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page247#post9865
Greg saying Bohrok Kaita and Va Kaita never appeared in story, but could have potentially existed, and confirming them as "potentially canon", putting them on equal level of canonity: https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page174#post6933
Furthermore, the BS01 Bohrok Kaita article makes a few claims that aren't cited, are these just speculation? "The Kaita is named after the dominant Krana housed within it. " "The Kaita is powered by a single Krana, which serves to help it communicate with the Bahrag, and give it an additional power to assist it in completing its task. The Bohrok Kaita also carries several of its own Krana, in the event that it needs to replace one." "Bohrok Kaita are rarely formed, and only do so to combat threats tougher than an entire swarm." The only relevant info to any of that that I could find is my own post from many years ago with answers from Greg: https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page174#post6931 "4) On BIONICLE Sector 01, I saw that the Kaita of Tahnok-Kal, Pahrak-Kal, and Nuhvok-Kal is called Kaita Za-Kal and is controlled by Krana Za-Kal, does that mean that the original Kaita of Tahnok, Pahrak, and Nuhvok is controlled by Krana Za? Same thing with bLehvak, Gahlok, and Kohrak with Krana Ja." "4) It wasn't necessary to specify which krana controlled the original Kaita, simply because the Kal kaita had three krana in the model. The original Kaita did not, to my recollection. That is why we had to specify which one was in control[/QUOTE] " Greg was mistaken here because the original Bohrok Kaita had two Krana each, whereas the Kal Kaita instructions showed no Krana (and the Za Kaita could fit one, whereas the Ja Kaita didn't even have a standard head design, but still presumably canonically carried a Ja-Kal). But anyway, if the BS01 claim that the Kaita is named after the dominant Krana within it is correct (which makes sense, but Greg has only explicitly stated this to be the case for Kal Kaita, not regular Bohrok Kaita, as far as I know), it would stand to reason that a Bohrok Kaita could be controlled by any of the 8 breeds of Krana, making the BS01 names of "Bohrok Kaita Ja" and "Bohrok Kaita Za" arbitrary. Why couldn't, for example, a Tahnok/Pahrak/Nuhvok Kaita be controlled by a Krana Ca, making it "Bohrok Kaita Ca"? Is there any source saying this couldn't happen? If not, there is presumably no basis for naming the articles Bohrok Kaita Ja and Bohrok Kaita Za. Regarding the claim that the Kaita is powered by a single Krana but carries additional Krana: It makes sense that the Krana in the headplate controls the Kaita, and the one carried in the rubber band is carried as a spare, but is there any source for this? It is treated as fact but seems to be speculation. Further, "carries several of its own Krana" makes it sound like it carries several spares, but the Kaita models only have one spare (if the Krana in the headplate is considered the controlling Krana and the other is a spare). And regarding Bohrok Kaita being "rarely formed": Is there a source for this? Greg has said they NEVER appear in story, not that they RARELY appear in story.(The preceding unsigned comment was made by Turaga of Force)
- Thanks for the deep dive on this!
- You're right in that this does add a wrinkle to the ongoing discussions about "not appearing in the story", despite the conventionally held wisdom to acknowledge them. Obviously set models aren't necessarily a guarantee of appearance in canon (see: Kabaya models) but for the most part, it was usually a pretty good sign. Given that neither the regular Bohrok Kaita nor Va Kaita appear in the Encyclopedia as far as I can tell, that does make things curious. However, the Bohrok Kaita do have a magazine feature (it's listed in the sources there, even though there's no digitized version that I could find, I referenced my own copy at the time), although it does not contain the reference to "rarely formed" so we might have to dig again to see if that's from an alternate source; maybe the website at the time? Regardless, I would say that at least qualifies as a source for them.
- As for the names; yeah I dunno. It does seem like some reverse logic applied, but also salient is the point that the Rahkshi Kaita did the same, so whoever was in charge of naming these things obviously wasn't thinking of any wider logical consistency, they just needed something for these particular models. Would having a different Kraata/Krana change the name? That's more of a thought exercise than anything else. It sounds like the controlling bit is derived from Greg's flawed premise; he was under the impression there were three Krana in the model, when in fact there weren't any discernable, but that also doesn't change the fact that these are what the names are, regardless of how much sense it makes.
- If we don't have any sources for the names of the OG Bohrok Kaita, then yeah those don't have to be their names. As for the Va Kaita, it definitely needs that source attached, but I think the lack of a page is mostly reflective of a lack of information about them; personally I don't think they would need a page, but the AfC might feel differently! -- Dorek Talk
01:13, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
- The Bohrok Kaita names probably came from either the original website, or were delivered from the Bohrok-Kal Kaita names, minus the Kal suffix, seeing that the component bohrok matches the component bohrok-kal kaita, just how Akamai and Akamai nuva shares the same Toa Mata/Toa Nuva.--Surel (Talk) 01:19, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
- In regards to the Krana, he has said they'd lkely fuse too ( https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2013-2017/page922#post14661268 ). The BEU also doesn't make mention of the Bohrok Kaita... ~ Wolk (talk) 05:36, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
- The Bohrok Kaita names probably came from either the original website, or were delivered from the Bohrok-Kal Kaita names, minus the Kal suffix, seeing that the component bohrok matches the component bohrok-kal kaita, just how Akamai and Akamai nuva shares the same Toa Mata/Toa Nuva.--Surel (Talk) 01:19, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
- BMP actually has the magazine page scanned, that Dorek was talking about, but it doesn't add that much to it honestly. And they weren't named on the original website either.--Surel (Talk) 07:55, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
- In my opinion, then, it would be best to remove the articles for "Bohrok Kaita Ja" and "Bohrok Kaita Za" entirely, moving all of that info info the Bohrok Kaita article (other than the non-factual claim as to what Krana the regular Bohrok Kaita would be controlled by, which should be left out if there is no source for it), and adding information on Bohrok Va Kaita to the Bohrok Kaita article (unless that is seen as unnecessary, since the Va Kaita are mentioned briefly on the Bohrok Va page). For names of individual Bohrok Kaita, if anything, say something like "A Bohrok Kaita would most likely be named after the controlling Krana. For example, a Bohrok Kaita controlled by a Krana Bo would most likely be called a Bohrok Kaita Bo." That could have a cite note saying that the assumption is based on the Kal Kaita being named after the controlling Krana-Kal.
- Obviously the Bohrok-Kal Kaita Ja and Bohrok-Kal Kaita Za articles should remain exactly as they are, seeing as they both have names confirmed by Greg and the Encyclopedia, and one of them was formed in one of the comics.
- I suspect that not only are the Bohrok Kaita Ja and Bohrok Kaita Za (Bohrok Kaita, NOT Kal Kaita) names based on speculation, but the claim that Bohrok Kaita carried spare Krana is probably also speculation. Is the Krana carried in the rubberband spare? Likely, but no proof.
- Regarding the Akamai/Akamai Nuva comparison, I don't know if you meant to imply that justifies the assumption on the Bohrok Kaita/Bohrok-Kal Kaita, but it is definitely a completely different issue, because Tahu, Onua, and Pohatu are single, individual beings, whereas there are countless Krana. It's not like there was only ever one single Krana Ja and it transformed into Ja-Kal in the same way that there was only one single Tahu who transformed into Tahu Nuva. Add to that the fact that an individual Bohrok could have access to a Krana of any of the 8 breeds given the spares carried by the Va. And if we really want to follow the official images/instructions exactly and treat that magazine scan as absolute fact, the Bohrok Kaita are pictured with Xa, which would name them Bohrok Kaita Xa, but obviously that's just because Xa is the Krana breed that the graphics people always used in instructions.
- And if we're going to treat that magazine scan's description as fact (what is standard practice on this? Are Lego magazines official enough?), that actually disproves the claim that a Bohrok Kaita is controlled by a single Krana at a time, because it says that it is fueled by the energies of multiple Krana. But this goes against Greg's claim that the Krana fuse together. I guess if you really want to reconcile these you could say the Krana in the headplate is a fused "Krana Kaita", and the Krana in the rubberband is a spare that is separate from the 3 that fused, but this would really be grasping and reconciling stuff, because this is clearly not what Greg or the set designers or the magazine bio's author had in mind. In my opinion, I don't see why the Krana would have to fuse just because the Bohrok fuse, since Bohrok and Krana are separate entities, but if you want to give Greg's answer priority over the Lego Magazine then I guess that means the Krana fuse (in which case the combiner model shouldn't canonically carry a second Krana). Turaga of Force (talk) 09:23, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
Followup to the name discussion from a few years ago: The individual articles now have quotes around Za and Ja as they should, but the mentions of the Bohrok Kaita and Bohrok Va Kaita (in this articld AND in the "Sets/Combiners and Alternate Models" article) are inconsistent with this: they either omit the quotes entirely or have the quotes around the entire name when the quotes should be only around Ja or Za. For example "Bohrok Va Kaita Ja" should instead be Bohrok Va Kaita "Ja". I don't know how to do this change myself without messing up the links since some mentions of the names link to the set articles. Turaga of Force (talk) 18:36, 24 September 2024 (UTC)