Meta talk:Romance

Kiina x Mata Nui in TLR

Am I disputing that Kiina's feelings for Mata Nui stem from their meeting in The Legend Reborn? Of course not. But TLR doesn't remotely hint at any romantic subtext between Kiina and Mata Nui (as I said in my edit summary, most fans viewed Kiina's interactions with Gresh or Berix as having more romantic chemistry than Mata Nui). Furthermore, whenever Greg was asked about Kiina's romance, he always pointed to the then-upcoming 2010 book Journey's End rather than saying that it's already present in TLR. This all indicates that Kiina's feelings towards Mata Nui didn't blossom until after the movie's events. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to cite TLR (which has no romance) in this article when the other citations (Journey's End and Greg's confirmation that the book's romantic subtext is intentional) already cover this point well enough. --PeabodySam (talk) 21:16, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I am not saying TLR displays romance between the two characters on its own. I don't believe any of the media does. My point is the this particular relationaship is emergent from all the component media put together. The fact that there is any romance is already hinted at very lightly in the story, if you remove its basis, those hints cease to be, because they have nothing to stand on at that point. I don't think we can say "this piece shows it and this one does not", it's not so black and white. It is all part of one emotional journey if you will and the pieces flow to each other naturally (which I think is a good thing from storytelling perspective). You cannot cut it up to individual pieces, otherwise they loose meaning. A good example is this exchange from TLR:

I might be able to do something for you. But I'm going to want something in return. I want out of this dump! You have to take me with you! Kiina! It's all right. If it's within my power, I will take you, but the time to help my people is running out.

Which is payed off in these romance-hinting exchanges in JE:

Mata Nui put a hand on her shoulder. “I won’t forget you, Kiina … or my promise. I will get you to a new world."

“He promised me, Ackar,” Kiina continued. “He promised to bring me to a new world. Instead, he brought the new world to me.”

These cannot be separated without them loosing context and meaning.--ToaKebaka (talk) 09:08, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Again, I'm not disputing that TLR plants the seeds that blossom in JE. But is it necessary to cite TLR in this instance? Not as the article currently stands, since TLR adds nothing to the sentence ("Kiina harbored romantic feelings towards Mata Nui.") that already has three more directly relevant references. It'd be like a Harry Potter wiki that said "Harry Potter married Ginny Weasley" and then cited Philosopher's Stone as a reference for that statement (because that was their very first interaction, which led to Ginny's crush on Harry in Chamber of Secrets and Harry reciprocating her feelings in the later books); wouldn't that seem odd and unnecessary?

Now, if you wished to expand that one sentence into a more in-depth history of Kiina and Mata Nui's relationship, then sure, I could see TLR being cited for their first meeting and interactions. But within TLR itself, Kiina views Mata Nui as an opportunity at least and a new friend at best; there's no harbored romance in that yet. --PeabodySam (talk) 14:35, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Vhisola's feelings for Nokama

While Vhisola's feelings for Nokama aren't at all healthy, aren't reciprocal, and well beyond creepy and obsessive, I think that it is very much implied by the novels that her feelings are a form of love. Would it be all right if I added that on here? I will also look to see if any specific explanation was given officially at any point, but if not, would it also be okay to narrativize and say either that this is just non-romantic obsession/inaccurate attribution of human characteristics? I get that this isn't quite as clear of an inclusion as Matau and Nokama or Maku and Huki, but it is well known among the community(at least to those who read the books), and it is not really any less ambiguous than Hahli and Jaller's implied relationship. Firespitter Lhii (talk) 01:00, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Counterpoint: the romantic undertones of Matau/Nokama, Maku/Huki, and Hahli/Jaller were in movies and animations not written by Greg Farshtey. Vhisola's feelings towards Nokama are exclusively in Greg's novels, and Greg has been very adamant about his stance on love/romance being non-canonical. Therefore, it is doubtful he intentionally wrote Vhisola as a lover. --PeabodySam (talk) 15:38, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

I would still be willing to believe he didn't intend on it being romantic, but Greg also wrote at least on moment of romance himself, in Challenge of the Hordika, Chapter 7, Paragraph 14, where Matau says he wished that he and Nokama could be more than friends.

Upon looking for anything Greg wrote on the forums about their relationship, all I could find was this, which does seem to shut it down, but also the idea of romance in general. Furthermore, it seems just as much about 3b as it does 3. I don't know what to make of this though. Your point is valid, but I still think there needs to be more discussion. Firespitter Lhii (talk) 05:07, 2 December 2024 (UTC)