BIONICLEsector01 talk:Articles for Deletion

Rename "Dekar-Hydraxon" to "Hydraxon (Duplicate)" and "Hydraxon" to "Hydraxon (Original)"

Most articles covering subjects whose names changed during the story use the subject's new name. Examples include "Jaller," "Takanuva," and "Treespeak" (back when it was a full article). Renaming "Dekar-Hydraxon" to "Hydraxon" would match that convention. With this change, we could also remove the Nickname template from that article--"Dekar-Hydraxon" was a term made up for BS01.

Of course, then we'd have two "Hydraxon" articles, so we could turn "Hydraxon" into a disambiguation page and distinguish the character articles with the titles "Hydraxon (Duplicate)" and "Hydraxon (Original)." -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 17:46, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Votes for renaming "Dekar-Hydraxon" and "Hydraxon"

1. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 17:46, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
2. -- Dag (talk) 18:26, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
3. ~ Wolk (talk) 20:39, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
4. --Surel (Talk) 08:04, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
5. - Toa Jala ^Converse 21:48, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Votes against renaming "Dekar-Hydraxon" and "Hydraxon"

1. I agree with Dorek's reasoning below. --Angel Bob (talk) 20:04, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Comments on renaming "Dekar-Hydraxon" and "Hydraxon"

I vague remember we having a very similar poll already. And we've made the changes, that was the time when we merged Dekar's and the Dekar-Hydraxo pages I believe, only to Dorek rename the page back to Dekar-Hydraxon. So I'll only vote if he's okay with the changes lol --Surel (Talk) 20:19, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Here's what I found.^[1][2][3] Also, if the pages do end up being renamed, we should have a "Hydraxon" disambiguation page. Dag (talk) 20:56, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Ah, I knew we'd talked about the page name a while back but had forgotten we'd actually voted on it. My bad (and thanks for bringing up that info). Also, agreed about the disambig. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 04:54, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

I'll be honest, I'm still not sold on it, although it is the least obtrusive solution (aside from what it is now). Functionally, he's still Dekar, and it feels remiss to have his name just be a redirect. It's too unique to compare to Takua or Treespeak.

We could also just make it Dekar =P -- Dorek _Talk 02:55, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

I see what you mean. Since the article is about two identities (rather than a single identity/concept with two names, as in the other examples), there's a good argument for mentioning both identities in the title. Personally, I still lean against "Dekar-Hydraxon" since it's a nickname while "Dekar" and "Hydraxon (Duplicate)" aren't. In that case, since the new Hydraxon doesn't remember his past, I think it'd make more sense to title the article with his new identity instead of his old one. None of my opinions are strong though, and I'm curious to hear others. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 04:54, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

I think we should create a separate page for Dekar. Once he becomes Hydraxon, he's no longer Dekar. Dekar essentially no longer exists (RIP). Like Morris said, they're two different identities, but I agree with Dorek as well: it's too unique to use Takua/Takanuva as a model, so we need to do something else in this case. When Takua became Takanuva, he was still the same individual, so it makes sense to give him only one page. Either way, I support the name changes being proposed here. - Toa Jala ^Converse 21:48, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

If I'm not mistaken, that's how it originally was, waaaaaay back in the day. I think the argument for fusing them (maybe I did that? idk it's been 15 years) was because he IS still Dekar; mind readers can access those parts of his brain, and literally any time he appears in the story people go "this guy's a phony!" so being Dekar is still central to the character and his arc. It's not like we would have had two pages for amnesiac Takua and regular Takua, or Metru Nui Nuhrii and Mata Nui Nuri, etc. etc. I think having two "Hydraxon" pages doesn't really capture the complexities of it, although at some point I get that it's just semantics. -- Dorek _Talk 18:07, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Merge Professional Contributors to BIONICLE with BIONICLE

I've never quite liked the real people page, not that it doesn't provide useful information, but it was always a bit hodgepodge. I think the information would do well on the BIONICLE page itself, with a bit of tweaking (probably bullet lists instead of sections, but I'm not opposed to some kind of table if we wanted to sort them by what they did, rather than alphabetically?).

ALTERNATIVELY we could use the new Meta page system (I'll have examples soon!) and, like, split the information, but I feel like that might be hard to do without ripping a lot of information off the BIONICLE page as it is. -- Dorek _Talk 16:33, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Votes for merging Professional Contributors to BIONICLE with BIONICLE

1. -- Dorek _Talk 16:33, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Votes for using the Meta tag

1. I think having a list of the people who have contributed to the theme is great, but I personally would rather see it be part of the new Meta plan than merged into BIONICLE. -- TheRocketRacer (talk) 00:11, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
2. Right! This was the thing, I forgot. ~ Wolk (talk) 01:45, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
3. Moving my vote now that some Meta examples are live--Gonel (talk) 18:05, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
4. - Toa Jala ^Converse 17:13, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Votes for doing nothing

1. I still don't know what'll be the point of the meta tags, and until then, I think it worth to be a separate page.--Surel (Talk) 18:36, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Comments on merging Professional Contributors to BIONICLE

I'm not sure how the Meta pages will work, so I'll refrain from voting for now.

I feel like there's too much information to squeeze it into the BIONICLE page, and I also know the contributors page is horribly incomplete / out of date. Kind of a hazzle to maintain, but I do think it is a necessairy page to have, and it's certainly better than making seperate pages for each person. Keeping track of what they did is a very important aspect.

I guess, ultimately I would need to see what these options would look like. ~ Wolk (talk) 17:33, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm in the same boat as Wolk. I don't really think that information belongs tacked on to the BIONICLE page (we finally got a space for the Fan Community section that had already been there). Outside of maybe an out-of-universe BIONICLE cameos section, the BIONICLE page is pretty complete and self-contained, whereas the "Professional Contributors" section serves a pretty different purpose. For me, it would be like merging the "Other Toa" page with "Elements."

I'm very curious about the Meta examples, and seeing what they'd look like may motivate me to both change my vote here and vote on the Meta tag in AfC. I'd also definitely be keen on revising the Contributors page. But for the time being, out of the three options I'm inclined to the status quo. --Gonel (talk) 18:16, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Meta:Tahu is up. As for other pages I'm still thinking of examples; I wholesale moved Meta:Fan Community, but others might require a bit more tweaking. Ultimately I don't think it would be as good a fit for the real people article, but at the same time, I still think there's a better way than just "here's a list of randos in no particular order". Maybe I'll recategorize the page if nobody likes the idea of merging. -- Dorek _Talk 12:23, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

To anyone who doesn't understand what the new Meta tag is for, it's for real world information outside of the story as well as fan-created concepts, or at least I think that's what it's intended for, let me know if I'm wrong. -- TheRocketRacer (talk) 01:43, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Merge Bohrok Kaita Ja and Bohrok Kaita Za with Bohrok Kaita

I know this might seems like a strange nomination, but hear me out. We don't have examples of either Bohrok Kaita in the story, and they don't even have official names. As far as I'm concerned, they're both just stubs and don't contain much unique information. - Toa Jala ^Converse 17:13, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Votes for Merging into Bohrok Kaita

1. - Toa Jala ^Converse 17:13, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
2. Dag (talk) 01:13, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
3. ~ Wolk (talk) 11:46, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
4. --Surel (Talk) 19:18, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Votes for Merging them into the main Bohrok page

1. To be honest, I don't think they worth more than the Bohrok Va Kaita, which doesn't even have their own page, just mentioned on the main Bohrok Va page.--Surel (Talk) 22:07, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
2. Either is fine. Dag (talk) 01:13, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
3. I'd rather they have their own page, but I'm also okay with merging them into Bohrok. - Toa Jala ^Converse 18:27, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Comments on Merging into Bohrok Kaita

Surel-Nuva's suggestion sounds reasonable as well. Just the same, here's the sandbox of my imagined Bohrok Kaita merged page. - Toa Jala ^Converse 22:22, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

If you could include the Bohrok Va Kaita too on this one, you'll have my vote for a merged page. :D --Surel (Talk) 12:14, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Done, although it adds virtually nothing to the page. You may be onto something. - Toa Jala ^Converse 19:00, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't know why, but it just feels right to include them there.--Surel (Talk) 19:18, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

I feel that whatever happens may as well happen with the Kal Kaita and the Rahkshi Kaita. Both had such minor antagonistic roles, and their BS01 pages are minimal enough that they could very safely be consolidated. Their unique names differentiate them a bit, but not everything with a unique name warrants a page. --Gonel (talk) 22:39, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

The difference IMO is that the Rahkshi Kaita and one of the Bohrok-Kal Kaita at least have appearances. - Toa Jala ^Converse 04:06, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Rename "Meta:Use of Māori Words in BIONICLE" to "Meta:Use of Real Words in BIONICLE"

It makes sense given this page to have similar pages dedicated to the use of other languages in BIONICLE (notably English, Latin, and the various languages of MNOGII names). But instead of having one small page per each language or just a second page for every other language, I feel it just makes sense to consolidate all this information on the same page. --Gonel (talk) 02:24, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Votes for Renaming

1. --Gonel (talk) 02:24, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
2. ~~ KDNX (Talk) 04:35, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Votes against Renaming

1. - Toa Jala ^Converse 04:09, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
2. Firespitter Lhii (talk) 04:55, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Would swap vote under the below caveats. Firespitter Lhii (talk) 17:35, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Comments

What makes the use of Māori words unique is the controversy that ensued. The page isn't just about the words, it's about the lawsuit and the culture. A list of Latin or English words wouldn't have the same significance. I'd be open to renaming it "Use of Polynesian Words", seeing as that was also part of the controversy. - Toa Jala ^Converse 04:09, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Rename, but keep Māori words in their own subsection, first, or second after English. Include info on the use of Māori words controversy. ~~ KDNX (Talk) 04:36, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Do not rename, as 'real words' is vague and would refer to nearly the entire Matoran language. If it is renamed, it should be to "appropriated words" or "misappropriated words". Firespitter Lhii (talk) 04:55, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Honestly the title doesn't matter so much to me as expanding the page's scope, but still keeping it in this vein. I'm entirely happy with a title to the effect of "Misappropriated Words" or such. So if we changed the title to something like that would it change your vote, or would you still be opposed to the change overall? --Gonel (talk) 05:39, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

I would support the vote if it is changed to something more along those lines. Firespitter Lhii (talk) 17:35, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Merge Memory Crystal And Knowledge Crystal

A while back, I brought up on the Knowledge Crystal talkpage that there is much similarity between knowledge and memory crystals, to the point that they seem identical, and I believe it is a strong enough case to present it as such on the wiki. I'll summarize all the information here:

• The 2004 style guide says Nuju's task was guarding knowledge and memory crystals. While it distinguishes the two, it also says that Ko-Metru is "dominated by enormously tall knowledge and memory crystals," implying that Knowledge Towers are made from both.
• In a string of answers from Dec 2003 and Feb 2004, Greg says that knowledge and memory crystals both store information[1][2] and confirms that they both make up Knowledge Towers.[3] While he did say they were different and this difference would later be explained in the City of Legends guide,[4][5] memory crystals are not mentioned even once in the book and this difference is never explained anywhere.
• The Rahi Beasts guide says that "Frost Beetles have been known to consume the crystals used to grow new Knowledge Towers," then says that "Matoro once proposed a theory that some of these creatures may have eaten memory crystals." While this has long been interpreted on BS01 to mean they mistake knowledge crystals for memory crystals, this actually implies what has already been confirmed, that memory crystals also make up Knowledge Towers.
• The first encyclopedia only mentions knowledge crystals in the entry for Knowledge Towers, but does not have specific entries for either knowledge or memory crystals.
• The updated encyclopedia includes an entry on memory crystals, but still not one for knowledge crystals.

To summarize, both knowledge and memory crystals make up Knowledge Towers and can store information. Although Greg said they are different and this distinction would be explained, this was never followed through on, and later material continued to suggest that they are the same. This leads me to believe that a later internal decision was made to consolidate them to a single object.

As to what the name of the merged page should be, Knowledge Crystal or Memory Crystal, I have no strong opinion either way. Dag (talk) 17:20, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Votes for merging Memory Crystal And Knowledge Crystal

1. Dag (talk) 17:20, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
2. CozyFrog (talk) 18:09, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
3. --Surel (Talk) 19:30, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
4. ~ Wolk (talk) 09:36, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Comments on Memory Crystal and Knowledge Crystal

So, by merging the pages are we saying that they're the same thing, or are we simply saying one page should be predominant and both will be mentioned? I don't mind merging, but I think there's enough evidence to say that they're different objects, even if we can't necessarily delineate their specific characteristics... -- Dorek _Talk 05:21, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

What's the difference, because aside from the wiki saying they are different, every aspect of them are the same. Both store data, both can be used to grow Knowledge towers, and that's the only 2 functions these two ever had.--Surel (Talk) 07:09, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Dorek. Since everything we know about the two behave the same, but they are also distinguished objects from one another, I think we should mention both on the page, and note that they are separate objects, but as far as their known characteristics go, functionally identical. I'd probably go for Memory Crystal for the page name, since that's what got a BEU entry. ~ Wolk (talk) 09:22, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

The only sources that explicitly say they're two distinct objects is the style guide, which was never meant to be public, and Greg saying early on that the difference would be explained, but it never was, and unless Greg writes it in official media, he has the right to change his mind. But the thing I still don't understand is that Crystal Matrix was somehow aware of the Ko-Metru and Nuju bios from the style guide, or they were also in some other source. I had assumed it was from the bionicle.com, but apparently their bios weren't on the site till around April 2004. Dag (talk) 14:53, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

https://www.bzpower.info/story.php?ID=1603 https://www.bzpower.info/story.php?ID=1604 https://www.bzpower.info/story.php?ID=1605 The presskit used the same bios, and was given to BZPower in December 03. Where in the style guide id you find info the Metrus? NVM it's in the intro section... ~ Wolk (talk) 15:13, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

The discrepancy is in the wording of Rahi Beasts: "Matoro once proposed a theory that some of these creatures may have eaten memory crystals and somehow absorbed the knowledge inside them." This can be interpreted one of two ways: either Frost Beetles have been observed eating Memory Crystals and Matoro's theory is that they absorb their knowledge, or they have not been observed eating Memory Crystals and Matoro's theory is: a) that they do and b) that that causes their intelligence. My assumption reading it has always been the second, that the difference between the two is that Knowledge Crystals are something Frost Beetles definitely eat and may or may not make them smarter, whereas Memory Crystals are something Frost Beetles only possibly eat, and if so is what makes them smarter. Master Inika ^(Talk) 15:36, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

If knowledge and memory crystals are indeed two distinct objects, we can't say that Frost Beetles definitely eat knowledge crystals, only that they eat "the crystals used to grow new Knowledge Towers," and again, based on Greg and the style guide/presskit bios, memory crystals also can be used to grow Knowledge Towers. Dag (talk) 16:05, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

It seems pretty clear that, at one point, they WERE intended to be different, hence Greg's insistence that there would be some sort of clarification. Regardless of that clarification being abandoned/never forthcoming, I feel like the original intent, in this case, should apply, especially since both terms made it into publication, and we don't have anything, conversely, telling us that they are actually the same. It'll be annoying to write out no matter what ("these two things are different. how? nobody knows!") but I wouldn't necessarily feel comfortable declaring them to be the same item (I think the pages can still be merged though). -- Dorek _Talk 03:46, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

^If they're not the same thing, how would you suggest the pages be merged? - Toa Jala ^Converse 05:10, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

The only reason I'm suggesting merging the pages is because I think the two objects should be considered one in the same. If they shouldn't be, then I'm against merging the pages. If the pages aren't merged, then they still need a serious overhaul to convey their similarities and the ambiguities of their differences, if there even are any, which would be a pain to do. It would be a lot easier for us to go with the simplest conclusion, that they are in fact the same. We would add a note or a trivia point explaining what I've explained here, that originally they were intended to be different, but because no difference was ever given and their only known functions are completely identical, we consider them the same with what little information we have as to not cause confusion. EDIT: Here's a sandbox I quickly threw together to better show what I mean. Dag (talk) 16:56, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

I'm still on the fence, since it seems we have no way of definitively determining whether they are or aren't the same object (grr!). That's a good sandbox though. If they do get merged, don't forget to include the part about Matoran storing information at will via telepathy (as stated here). - Toa Jala ^Converse 07:28, 25 February 2023 (UTC)