On the 100,000 years + section, before Mata Nui's creation it is said that the Zivon was placed in the Field of Shadows. But the Zivon was created by the Makuta, who were created by Mata Nui, so that event could not have happened before Mata Nui was activated.
Am I missing something or should the timeline be changed to reflect this? --Darthlego 10:59, 20 December 2012 (PST)
No One Gets Left Behind
Since Spiriah had a team of Toa Hagah, which he doubtfully got after his 'failure', and the formation of the Toa Hagah takes place after NOGLB, which in turn takes place after the formation of the Dark Hunters, that leaves NOGLB, and the formation of the Toa Hagah, to take place between Spiriah's failure and the formation of the Dark Hunters, between 70,000 to 80,000 years ago. At the moment it is stated to take place 'over 7,000 years ago'.
- Oh... That's a Retcon! Spiriah can't have had a Toa Hagah Team, for his experiment with the Skakdi was long before the evolution of the Makuta species. And the Makuta hired the Toa Hagah after their evolution. Greg missed that. -- Surel—Nuva (Talk) 16:17, 24 February 2017 (CET)
- As I get it, the page only states that NOGLB happened before 7,000 years ago (since Varian is in stasis during Zaktan's flashback in BL4). Between 70,000 and 80,000 years ago is before 7,000 years ago, so there is no retcon. --maxim21 19:08, 24 February 2017 (CET)
- Wait a sec, do you have a soruce for saying that the Toa Hagah were created after the Makuta's evolution and that all Toa Hagah teams were created at the same time? And before you say it, the fact that it might be in the timeline (if it is, I missed it) is not enough because it doesn't cite any source. ~OnionShark 20:34, 24 February 2017 (CET)
- Ok, but what's the source for this? ~OnionShark 22:46, 24 February 2017 (CET)
- So, if the Raid on Artakha page is right, this event was 1,500 years before the Great Cataclysm, so 2,500 years before the current timeline. Our Timeline says that the evolution of the Makuta was 40/30,000 years ago. I think someone should check the Makuta's Guide... There's no other reason why was it put there. -- Surel—Nuva (Talk) 23:30, 24 February 2017 (CET)
- I asked for the source saying that the Hagah were made for defending the Makuta's armor, and just because it's written somewhere on BS01 doesn't mean that it is accurate, like when the GB page said that the GBs that brought the Ignika to Voya Nui were the same ones that brought the Scroll of Preparations to Metru Nui and tampered with the Blade Burrowers. ~OnionShark 09:54, 25 February 2017 (CET)
- I'd just like to remind you that if there isn't a source, then there is no contradiction, and Spiriah had a Toa Hagah team (and who cares if they were not mentioned in TMC, they were just not important). ~OnionShark 18:29, 25 February 2017 (CET)
I think your edit to the Other Toa page is a little hasty, SN. We still haven't seen any source saying that the Toa Hagah were only formed after the Makuta's evolution. Until such a source appears, there is no contradiction, and there's no need to change anything. Hence I've reversed that edit. If you can find a source that clears up when the Toa Hagah were formed, then I'll yield. --Angel Bob (talk) 06:07, 26 February 2017 (CET)
- I checked literally every source that mentioned the Toa Hagah, and none of them say that the Hagah were employed to protect the Makuta's armor. I'm gonna re-add the information about Spiriah's team. ~OnionShark 15:19, 26 February 2017 (CET)
- The Greg quote referenced in the first event of the section says that the DHs were formed before the Barraki's rebellion because there were ex-DHs in their armies. Aaand I just realized I made mistake, the rebellion started 95,000 YA, not 90,000, I'll correct the error immediately. ~OnionShark 14:47, 3 April 2017 (CET)
- Oh, right, sorry. ~OnionShark 15:24, 3 April 2017 (CET)
Pre-launch (so, is that the time before time?)
a. the robot was fully functional and launched after the toa mata did their work in karda nui, and
b. the toa mata were trained by the OoMN, and
c. the Mata were not the first toa team, and
d. the OoMN was preceded by the hand of artahka, which was functional for a significant amount of time, and
e. certain members of the Hand, such as Axxon, ran around conquering places for a long time in between being part of the hand and the order, and that
f. I had another point to put here, but i can't remember what it is,
wouldn't the building and preparing of the mata nui robot (and thus the history that happened inside it before mata nui took control) have taken something like 200 years? there's no way that all that could have happened in such a short timespan, especially given the points i made above - those events were somewhat spread out, and that was all before the robot launched. Furthermore, this would give us perspective on how long tren krom was ruling the universe - and that lesovikk's hiatus took basically the entire history of the matoran universe! (since his team was killed before launch, and he was still wandering around in the final days of the universe, as seen in the Pit in the 2007 story arc.)
- Greg said that the building of the GSR took only some monthsg, but it's enough for more teams to exist in a place that is big as a planet. And I'm pretty sure that the HoA trained the Mata (we should check BL10). ~OnionShark 07:52, 30 May 2017 (CET)
- Concerning the Toa Mata, they were trained by Hydraxon when the OoMN was already around, given that the Mata were sent to Daxia after their creation and were awakened by Helryx. Du7734 12:03, 31 May 2017 (CET)
- I checked and the flashbacks don't mention the OoMN, so Helryx was still part of the HoA at the time. ~OnionShark 13:24, 31 May 2017 (CET)
- Well, there must be GregF quotes about that, since every pages on this wiki covering these events state that the Toa Mata were awakened into Daxia Fortress after the disbandment of the HoA. In fact, it's simply stated on this timeline page. Du7734 14:27, 31 May 2017 (CET)
- Well the building of the GSR took months, the HoA was disbanded after 200 years from its creation, and the Mata were awakened before Mata Nui's take-off, so it must simply be an error (I've noticed this wiki is full of them). ~OnionShark 15:24, 31 May 2017 (CET)
- @Angel Bob If anything we should searcg for a source that states that the HoA had already been disbanded, if there isn't one it's probably just one small mistake like many. @Du7734 I don't understand why you say this, the BL10 flashbacks don't mention the OoMN at all. (And in case you don't remember, Helryx was part of the HoA). ~OnionShark 19:48, 31 May 2017 (CET)
- @OnionShark: hm, the "this" is refering to my last message, right? It was just a sidenote that came to my mind when I checked the HoA page. There, it's stated that the HoA was founded during the MU's construction. And since it's also stated the HoA was active during 200 years, the building of the GSR has to last 200 years at the least. Then, if all of that is correct, the rule of precedence implies that the statement "the GSR's building took months" must be ignored. Du7734 23:32, 31 May 2017 (CET)
- Related quote:
- 3. Who sent the Toa Mata to fight the avohkah?
- 3) Order of Mata Nui
- 3. Wait...so the OoMN came around BEFORE Mata Nui actually took control of the universe? What I heard in the Official Greg Discussion thread and from this reply was that Mata Nui (and therefore the avokah) first came to be shortly before the Toa Mata entered Karda Nui. Is that correct? If so, does that mean the OoMN did indeed exist before Mata Nui himself?
- Before he was active, yes
- (by Cmaster05, 2008-07-18 09:31)
- 05:12, 1 June 2017 (CET)
- Huh, this changes everything I guess. It's weird, 'cause I'm pretty sure that the Core War didn't last for over two centuries. We should also check for a possible retcon (besides, it may also have been an error, maybe Greg didn't think about the timeline before answering, who knows), or for a source that says for how long the HoA was active (I imagine it would be World). ~OnionShark 07:42, 1 June 2017 (CET)
- Oh, it's not from World? Then it originates from the BEU, all the information is there. Yes, including the 200 years part. That means that we should now find a source for the lenght of the Core War, and I doubt it lasted that much. ~OnionShark 17:03, 1 June 2017 (CET)
- 3. How long did the Core War last?
- 3) I had originally said six months to a year for the war, but it may have been longer than that. (by The True Zedd of BZPower, 2009-07-15 20:39:00)
- 1) How long was the Core War (months, years, weeks, decades)?
- 1) Years, probably (by Makahi, Toa of Time, 2009-07-16 10:05:00)
- All I could find in the OGD. --maxim21 19:31, 1 June 2017 (CET)
Wow, this thread took off way faster than i intended - i mostly meant for it to be a fun discussion haha. (also of note, once you get to four or five colons for indenting, just start over with no colons.) i think it was established in ba10 that the OoMN trained the mata - that was part of the whole point of helryx showing takanuva what they did in their past as an organization, i think. anyway, there's no way that building the robot only took months - we're literally talking about building multiple self-contained biomes containing islands, oceans, skies, etc. i think that's the only timeline detail that's off here. another question - when reading through all those replies, i noticed you guys were quoting things, but i wasn't sure what they were from. are you quoting new stuff that you're asking greg over on ttv, or stuff from the old greg quotes archives? Intelligence4 (talk) 22:41, 2 June 2017 (CET) i think what angel bob said best sums it up - sometimes the canon itself is wrong
- Actually BL10 never mentions the OoMN (in fact, I always assumed that the HoA was training the Mata, as Helryx, Hydraxon and Spinax were part of the organization). The quotes come from those text files containing Greg's old BZP answers. And, while searching through the files, I've come across some quotes mentioning a timeline involving the HoA in the March 2007 Brickmaster issue, maybe it could help us understand the timeline better. Could anyone that has that issue upload scans if the timeline to the wiki?
- I might have it; it'd be a longshot though - and i don't have access to a scanner - unless photographs are okay, but there are a number of security problems with uploading those i'd rather not deal with (meta data and such). is there any other info you can provide about that information on the HoA? maybe what page the info was on, any context surrounding what you saw, source of said quotes, etc. Might help me dig up something. (idk how, but more context is never a bad thing, i suppose.) Intelligence4 (talk) 09:03, 4 June 2017 (CET)
- food for thought: helryx said that they knew the mata would lose part of their memories, and that was a good thing so that it would keep their organization secret. the HoA didn't try to remain very secretive did they? whereas the order of mata nui effectively concealed themselves from the world for several millennia. Intelligence4 (talk) 19:49, 4 June 2017 (CET)
I just found this page and am summarizing my thoughts. The HoA was active for 200 years before the OoMN (according to canon sources of undetermined accuracy), and we know that the OoMN existed before Mata Nui was active, (according to Greg's answer in the above quote), but that would mean that the HoA was active for 200 years inside Mata Nui before launch, meaning that Mata Nui was under construction for at least 200 years (a reasonable sounding amount of time for the project). If the time that the HoA existed was erroneous, it would have only existed for a few months or so, which would leave the only problem being that it simply doesn't seem feasible to construct Mata Nui that fast, but if that time period is accurate, then it actually doesn't necessarily conflict the time that the Core War was fought necessarily, if Mata Nui had been under way for some hundred years before the Core War started.
So my conclusion of the least conflicted explanation is this. Mata Nui was under construction for around 200 years or more, before the Core War started, a time during which the HoA was active. The Core War ignited when Mata Nui was near to completion, and the Great Beings decided late in production that the robot would be powered by Energized Protodermis, which had been found during the war. The HoA was disbanded adout when the Core War started to make way for the OoMN, who were to take over when Mata Nui became active. This leaves the only inconsistency the amount of time Greg said that it took to construct Mata Nui, which seemed like the most debatable fact in the list.--Harsulin's Ghost (talk) 23:30, 29 August 2017 (CET)
- @Harsulin's Ghost: Good summary, but your proposition is at odds with one canon fact: the MU project was a response to what's going on inside Spherus Magna, the potential Shattering, and how to fix it. In short, the study of EP and the MU's construction occured after that the Core War started. Moreover, the study of EP happened before the MU's construction, since it's this study which allows the Great Beings to design Protodermis.
- But, as for me, I found information that might settle things here. Let me quote the last paragraphs of Reign of Shadows:
"Angonce studied his ancient equipment. It told him much about the state of the newly restored Spherus Magna. Mata Nui had gone dormant, at least temporarily; the original Mata Nui robot and its prototype had both been destroyed; the nanotech inhabitants of Mata Nui had somehow survived and were emerging onto Spherus Magna and interacting with the local inhabitants.
The Great Being should have been pleased by all this. After all, it was he and his brothers and sisters who had created Mata Nui and sent the robot on its mission, which culminated in the restoration of the planet. But things had changed a great deal in the last 101,000 years. What might once have been cause for celebration now provoked very different emotions."
- As I understand it, with the actual context, Angonce refer to everything that's happened since the emergence of EP onto the surface of Spherus Magna. So, that would imply the Core War, the study of EP, the MU's construction, and the HoA's existence took place over a thousand years. Du7734 13:42, 30 August 2017 (CET)
- Absolutely not: 100,000 years passed since the shattering and the reformation of Spherus Magna. There's 99,000 years between the shattering and the GC. Du7734 21:30, 30 August 2017 (CET)
- No. 100,000 years passed since the shattering to the Great Cataclysm. (BIONICLE: World: Chapter 3: Metru Nui) That's the time while the Toa Mata were sleeping in the codrex. 1000 years passed while the Toa Mata were in the ocean. (BIONICLE: World Chapter 5: Mata Nui). 1 year passed since the Toa Mata awakened on Mata Nui (BIONICLE Legends 9 page 24-25). — Surel—Nuva (Talk) 21:37, 30 August 2017 (CET)
In response to your comment on my earlier post Du7734 (can I just call you Du-de, joke), yes, it does seem to be heavily implied throughout the story that Mata Nui was only started after the Core War, however I found an interesting piece of info that might suggest otherwise in the Legends of Bara Magna comic All Our Sins Remembered. After Raanu and Kyry brought the Great Beings a sample of the Energized Protodermis and they came to the conclusion that the planet would be destroyed, they released the Baterra, and quote "At the same time the Great Beings sped up another project: the creation of a giant robotic being with immense power, one capable of escaping the planet before it's destruction." Although this doesn't prove that Mata Nui was started before the Core War, I don't know that there is any text that directly opposes this theory. What it does prove however, is that Mata Nui was under way before the study of Energized Protodermis, which also means that the Matoran and Toa were not created until after the Core War started. This does present the problem of the Toa we know would have existed before the discovery of EP, for example Helryx, who as part of the HoA would have been around for a couple hundred years before then, as well as Lesovikk and his team. This leaves us with a potential contradiction, or Helryx and the other Toa of this early age were not protodermic beings like the later designs for the Toa Mata.--Harsulin's Ghost (talk) 21:43, 30 August 2017 (CET)
- @Surel-Nuva: The timeline from this chapter of BW doesn't state that at all: 100,000 years ago, BEFORE the timeline was written during the 07 storyline, the GBs founded Metru Nui. 1,001 years ago, BEFORE the timeline was written during the 07 storyline, the usurpation of Dume by Teridax and the events of 04~05 took place.
- The same goes for other media, as Mata Nui Saga: with the current time being the events of Journey's End there, 100,000 years before them, Mata Nui left Spherus Magna while the planet was struck by the Shattering. 1,000 years before them, the Great Cataclysm occured. And so, between those two, there's 99,000 years that passed.
- I mean, the journey-mission of Mata Nui has always lasted during 100,000 years, not 101,000 (for what I can find right now: pages 13, 21, 33, 66, and 69 of Jouney's End, this quote, and the entry one of Mata Nui's diary in the Guide to Bara Magna).
- @Harsulin's Ghost: (Ahah, If you want :p) Well, this quote is in contradiction with the Story of Spherus Magna, in the first pages of Mata Nui's Guide to Bara Magna. There, it's clearly stated the construction of the GSR began after the study of EP, the discovery that the Shattering will occur, and another attempt from the GBs to calm down the Core War with this revelation. Here's a pic of the source. Du7734 14:41, 31 August 2017 (CET)
- Well if that's the case then we do have a contradiction, not surprisingly. Still, it wouldn't be difficult to say that the Core War lasted longer, since Greg didn't actually seem all that sure himself, but in the end I guess the only way to settle this would be to Greg it.--Harsulin's Ghost (talk) 19:39, 31 August 2017 (CET)
Re-summarizing my thoughts. As I see it, the two least solidified facts in question are,
One:The amount of time the HoA was active,
And Two:The time that the Core War lasted.
In my opinion the latter is less supported because the fact that the HoA existed for 200 years was actually from a published source, but as for the length of the Core War, that was simply an nonchalant answer that Greg gave to a fan question. I think that in light of our conclusions in this discussion, we should ask Greg to choose one of these two adaptions.--Harsulin's Ghost (talk) 20:04, 31 August 2017 (CET)
- wow this blew up way more than i thought it would. if/when we ask greg, we should make sure to show him my original points from the OP, along with the quoted canon facts. i think we can safely assume the HoA was indeed around for 200 years though. also, i'm not sure we should ask greg to exclude some facts from canon, even if they're contradictory. not everything has to be perfect, and this is a nearly 10 year discontinued (!!??) story. we shouldn't discount and exclude parts of it after the fact that were told as part of it, imo. Intelligence4 (talk) 23:26, 4 September 2017 (CET)
I know how many time has passed since this topic was left behind, but I found the evidence that, indeed, the Order of Mata Nui awakened the Toa Mata not the Hand of Artahka, in the Makuta's Guide to the Universe: "TAHU: Toa Mata of Fire, Tahu was made leader of the team by the Order of Mata Nui." It's on the page 20. — Surel—Nuva (Talk) 10:51, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- Aye, that's right. It's just another mistake among many, but I guess this might be a bit more of a deal than just a small timeline thing. Either the Toa Mata were awakened by the HoA and Makuta's Guide made the mistake, or again, the Core War just lasted much longer than was originally proposed.--Harsulin's Ghost (talk) 00:01, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
- i said it before, but i'll say it again... i can't believe how much this blew up. i don't want to comment on the core war, but the building of the robot definitely took a couple hundred years. nice find, surel!
- also, didn't helryx say something to takanuva about the mata losing their memories and that was good since they wouldn't remember the oomn, but they didn't know just how severe the memory loss would be? Intelligence4 (talk) 23:03, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
- Well, Helryx told Takanuva in the BL10 that "We were aware the Toa Nuva would lose part of their memory in the time they spent in the Toa canisters, the better to keep our existence a secret." Considering that the HoA wasn't kept in secret, we can say that Helryx indirectly says that her Order trained & awakened the Toa Mata, so the MGttU didn't make any mistake in Tahu's article. — Surel—Nuva (Talk) 00:09, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
- They were the main defenders of the universe before the toa took over. I'm sure there's a more official source out there, but I'd say that's pretty good reasoning for them not being a secret organization - especially considering how openly the toa operate. Intelligence4 (talk) 06:46, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
Alright, a few new points and some (hopefully accurately) summary of what came before too so we're all on the same page.
1) @HarsulinsGhost and Intelligence4: The most relevant quote I've found on the Hand's secrecy is from from BEU's OOMN article, on p. 109: "It was decided from the outset that while TOA would be the public face of order and justice, the Order would remain hidden so that they could do things Toa could not." Since the Hand came after the Order, one could read this to mean the Hand was not secret.
2) Since the Hand disbanded in favor of Toa teams, and the first (non-Mata) Toa team formed after the Mata were put in stasis, it seems likely the Hand woke up the Mata. (That is, if we ignore Surel's MGttU quote for a minute.)
3) I think some confusion is stemming from whether the Hand and the Order are separate. BS01's Order and Hand articles seem to suggest they are different things. The Hand ended, then some time Helryx decided to create the Order. (BTW, don't know where that Helryx info comes from... it's not from BEU or BW.) MGttU has this quote, on p. 38, which leans that way too: "Axonn started out as a member of the Order's predecessor, the Hand of Artakha, and served with that organization until it broke up."
But BW and BEU suggest differently. BW never mentions the Hand, but on p. 49 it does mention that the GBs helped come up with the idea for the Order. Of course, out of universe the Hand hadn't been thought up yet. In-universe, BW is written from the perspective of Order members, so one could read that to mean Order agents viewed the Hand and Order as the same organization. In that case, the GBs came up with the Hand, not the Order, and it just got restructured/rebranded into the Order. Then BEU makes the same point pretty explicitly on p. 43: "The Hand reorganized itself as the ORDER OF MATA NUI, with many former members returning, and it continues under that name today."
I don't think that first MGttU quote is contradicting BW or BEU. Taken together, the quotes suggest OoMN has a similar history to S.H.I.E.L.D in the MCU. Originally the Hand was public knowledge like S.H.I.E.L.D. was in AoS season 1. (Or who knows, maybe the Hand was secret--BW p. 49 suggests the GBs specifically intended the Hand/Order to do dirty work after all.) But then the Hand "disbanded"/seriously reorganized into the Order and remained secret, like S.H.I.E.L.D. in AoS season 2. The Hand and Order are the same organization so to speak, just like S.H.I.E.L.D. is still S.H.I.E.L.D. after season 1 of AoS. So all three quotes so far could be construed to fit one story, one that's more or less consistent with the other canon we know. As mentioned in 2) the Hand would have awakened the Toa Mata, but other quotes (like Surel's from MGttU p. 20) can still call them the Order without being super incorrect, because the Order is like the Hand 2.0 instead of a whole new organization.
Now wait you say, this is all just mental gymnastics to get around contradictions in the canon. Yes, it totally is. But it's more or less self-consistent and (afaik) only requires us to reconsider one line in one guide, plus some Greg quotes. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 02:01, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
invalid greg quote?
i've been afk for a bit here, but around nov 25 (2017) du and surel went back and forth on some edits on the timeline - pertaining to when the dark hunters were formed in relation to the barraki. du's statement about having ex-DHs in the army not being possible didn't make sense to me, so instead of changing the page, i wanted to get some clarification on that. why's greg's quote invalid? Intelligence4 (talk) 22:50, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
- Far as I am aware, only their new armies, after being released by the OoMN during Teridax's reign, consisted of ex-Dark Hunters. ~ Wolk (talk) 05:38, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
There are several (actually, a sizeable chunk of them) bullet points on the page that are simply cited as "main story". I think we should be a little more specific in those citations - what is main story? Did the information come from a book that Greg wrote? was it a short story published on bionicle.com? (ooh, typing that url gives me nostalgia) How do we decide which media was main story, and which was supplemental, or special enough to deserve it's own ref square? I think there should be more specific notation on where certain bits fo information comes from. Intelligence4 (talk) 06:54, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
- I believe it is the main series books and comics aswell as the four movies, but I do agree, more specification would be handy. ~ Wolk (talk) 16:44, 19 February 2018 (UTC)