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Merge Heat Vision with Heat

So, Heat Vision... The page is rather small, just barely passing the "3 users minimum" rule, with Tahu being another application of the Kraata Power. The heat page already mentions Heat Vision as one of its applications, and in my eyes at least, this is a similar case to Power Scream - it's channeled through a different means than how a Toa would do it, but it's still applying the same Heat Power. It also shares similarities with the Freeze disk, as that when used by the Rahi Nui, manifested as Ice Vision, but we consider Freeze an application of Ice. Ultimately this is an arbitrary choice either way, but it'd be one less micro-page. ~ Wolk (talk) 16:27, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Votes for merging Heat Vision with Heat

  1. ~ Wolk (talk) 16:27, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
  2. Dag (talk) 16:34, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
  3. --Surel (Talk) 18:22, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Votes against merging Heat Vision with Heat

  1. - Toa Jala Converse 05:03, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
  2. Same reasons as Toa Jala. --ToaOfSnow(talk) 06:36, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
  3. Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 07:07, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Comments on merging Heat Vision with Heat

My argument against this proposal is that unlike Heat, Heat Vision isn't considered sub-power of Fire. Merging Heat Vision with Heat would imply otherwise. We consider Power Scream to be an application of Sonics, but is Laser Vision an application of Light? I asked that question several years ago, and the answer I got was no. If Laser Vision is not a sub-power of Light, then Heat Vision can't be a sub-power of Fire. Don't get me wrong - I understand what you're saying and I personally agree, but a precedent has been set against the classification of vision powers as elemental powers. - Toa Jala Converse 05:03, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

In which case, Power Scream is not a sub-power of Sonics, because a Toa of Sonics also cannot do that? ~ Wolk (talk) 15:37, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
Can Toa of Sonics use Power Scream? I've always wondered that. Surely they could emulate the sound if they chose, but do they specifically have the power of Power Scream? - Toa Jala Converse 17:27, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
"The equivalent, yes, but out of his hands, not his mouth" https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2008-2010/page63#post2514-line19,49 - It's like breathing fire, and I don't see that as any different than the reasoning for the Heat/Laser Vision powers... Perhaps Laser Vision too should be considered? Again, Ice Vision = Freeze as well. hmm... ~ Wolk (talk) 21:12, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Interesting. Again, I would personally argue yes, but I'd like to hear what the Staff has to say. - Toa Jala Converse 15:06, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

The essential logic seems to be that Laser Vision is separated from light based on the idea that light users generally cannot use lasers as a vision power, even though they could create laser beams otherwise. Heat vision would seem to follow the same logic. Fire-users cannot generally use their eyes to emit "beams of heat," but have other ways of creating such emissions. Only difference between these and Power Scream is that--I don't think--Power Scream never really got used by a named, major character who wasn't a Rahi and who stayed relevant to the story across a given year's arc, and when there was technically a character who had it in the given year (Teridax all the time) it wasn't really used by them afaik. Meanwhile for Heat and Laser Vision we had Hakann and Zaktan as prominent users across the course of their year. If Heat Vision is merged, Laser Vision would really need to be merged as well. And if they are merged, there would need to be an explicit explanation in the relevant subsection that the vision power versions of each type is not generally available to elemental users, and users of the vision powers are not generally able to use the broader parent power category. ζoxHistories External Image

In that case, I have to keep my vote against merging Heat Vision. I suppose it also makes sense that Laser Vision isn't a sub-power of Light, or else Makuta wouldn't be able to use it. However, I would argue then that ice vision shouldn't be considered an elemental ability either, for the sake of consistency. - Toa Jala Converse 19:59, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
I can live with keeping the pages, but I agree there needs to be a consistent throughline here; I'd argue we should in that case also remove Power Scream, & the Kanohi Dragon's fire breath, however preferably I 'd rather we instead mention & link Laser Vision on the light page. ~ Wolk (talk) 07:26, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
I agree. Maybe we can mention things like Power Scream and fire breath in the trivia sections of their respective pages, similarly to how we list tools and devices with elemental powers, such as Kazi's Echo Forks. - Toa Jala Converse 16:29, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
That makes sense. Alternatively, if it starts to get excessive, perhaps a non-elemental section? ~ Wolk (talk) 17:54, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
Just as a sidenote, even if Vamprah didn't become revelant to the later story, he was a major character in 2008, and he did use the Power Scream to scatter Icarax's teleporting atoms throughout the Universe.--Surel (Talk) 11:57, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Also another example is Teridax who used a power scream against Hydraxon. Showing that some powers were used more than previously thought. Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 12:40, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Delete LoUM, LoWB.m and LoWDPTa

I didn’t realize until now that we’re only allowed two user pages, I apologize.

I wouldn’t personally mind removing them anyways since it’s not like they have a tremendous amount of content on them anyways.

Links:

-- FirespitterVakama 06:31 PM, 14 September 2021 (EST)

Comments

Btw are my two current user pages supposed to go into one sandbox? -- FirespitterVakama 01:10 PM, 16 September 2021 (EST)

Yeah if you'd like to merge all of this stuff into one page, let me know once you've satisfied with the new subpage and I can delete the old ones. We're not enforcing the subpage limit super seriously (otherwise we'd have deleted the pages already), but yours can be reasonably merged into a single subpage. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 19:54, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Merge Disk Launcher (Vakama) with Disk Launcher

I don't see that Vakama's Disk Launcher really needs its own page separate from the main Disk Launcher page. Why not integrate them the way we did with Firestaff? We could use a similar template to differentiate between the two different forms and functions. - Toa Jala Converse 18:09, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Votes for merging Disk Launcher (Vakama)

  1. - Toa Jala Converse 18:09, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
  2. Makes sense to me, rather have one slightly bigger page than two stubs. ~ Wolk (talk) 18:27, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
  3. -- FirespitterVakama 03:39 PM, 25 September 2021 (EST)
  4. --ToaOfSnow(talk) 06:58, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
  5. I'be be fine with both options tbh, but Kanoka Launcher feels to be a more specific name.--Surel (Talk) 16:12, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Votes against merging Disk Launcher (Vakama)

  1. Lukas Exemplar (talk) 18:41, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
  2. - Makuta of Mata Nui (talk) 13:50, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Votes for merging the pages and rename it to Kanoka Launcher

  1. The Encyclopedia and the BEU calls it Kanoka Launcher.--Surel (Talk) 09:12, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
  2. I would be okay with this as well. - Toa Jala Converse 22:02, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
  3. I’m fine with this too. -- FirespitterVakama 06:48 PM, 20 November 2021 (EST)
  4. ~ Wolk (talk) 15:30, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Comments on merging Disk Launcher (Vakama)

I made a sandbox here. I couldn't quite work out how to merge the tool infoboxes (it kept disappearing when I clicked on the "Toa Tool" tab), so I kept them separate. As you can see, it contains all the information, images, and links of both pages. No information was excluded. - Toa Jala Converse 18:58, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

I am fairly certain that Vakama’s launcher was specifically made to be better at focusing his elemental power? And also, didn’t it have some unique functions, such as doubling as a jetpack? Or was that him focusing his elemental fire power through it? Lukas Exemplar (talk) 18:40, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
Those features can still be mentioned, but it's still a Kanoka launcher primarily. I don't think it is better at focusing his elemental powers; people keep asking if x launcher can be used for channeling elemental powers, the answer is always yes, because that ability is not a quality of specific tools, all tools can be Toa Tools and work just fine. The Power Lance, on the other hand, specifically boosts elemental powers. ~ Wolk (talk) 22:56, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
As for Kanoka (Disk) Launcher... The promotional sets use Kanoka Disk Launcher, as do the Vahki descriptions. Vakama uses Disk Launcher, the Matoran say disk launching action. We can always do "Also known as". ~ Wolk (talk) 12:47, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
Sure, but Greg has made allusions to some things being better at focusing the elemental powers than others, and I though it might be the case specifically with tools called "Toa tools" that these were made with this in mind, so that the materials or maybe inner structure is slightly different than normal weapons. Although he did really make that comment in relation to whether you could channel/focus your elemental power / element through a stone or stick or anything, and he said yes, but they'd probably break and not be very good at it. I also think the removal of that page is very sad and not very respective towards the tool and its history, as well as the character's history. Also, I assume the general article would then be listed under the category "Toa Tools"? Furthermore, I am sad to lose that infobox since it details pretty well what happened to the tool after he became a Turaga (it was destroyed). Lukas Exemplar (talk) 04:08, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
But the infobox wouldn't be lost. It would have 2 tabs, like Kardas or Charger and the status would be listed as destroyed for Vakama's launcher.--Surel (Talk) 07:18, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
Exactly. It will be merged - that means all the information will live on the same page, not that we're simply throwing it away. All the categories will be moved over as well, much like how any other launcher wielded by Toa (but not exclusively) still have the Toa Tool category. ~ Wolk (talk) 20:56, 20 November 2021 (UTC)