Talk:Sapient Species/Unnamed Species

Should we assume that a power a character has, that isn't connected to a Kanohi or tool, (such as Axonn's healing ability) is uniform to their race? Master Inika ^(Talk) 17:40, 25 October 2012 (PDT)

The article says that Krekka's species is referred to as "bruisers." What is the source on this? ~Toa Nui 21:28, 30 April 2015 (GMT)

There were referred to as that in Federation of Fear, but I feel like they were also called that somewhere else. --Vartemp ^Talk 22:35, 30 April 2015 (CEST)

Is it possible for us to start referencing our sources for most of the facts on BS01 (and not just the Farshtey chat)? Sometimes a fact pops up that I hadn't heard of before, and I want to check the source out for myself, but I can't since I'm not sure where it comes from. It would take time, but it would ultimately strengthen the legitimacy of the articles on this wiki. ~Toa Nui 20:40, 1 May 2015 (GMT)

We do citations for a lot of things, but primary sources currently isn't one of them; I wouldn't be opposed to a basic shorthand ref system where (per this example) you have something like "also called bruisers ^[FoF]", but my general thinking is that if you can access the source from the wiki, then it doesn't necessarily need citing. However, these pages don't have an appearances section by definition, so that's what the shorthand ref could be used for. -- Dorek _Talk 03:38, 4 May 2015 (CEST)

Annona's Species

In this quote, Greg states that he sees Annona as "a member of a species", although the only one of her kind on Spherus Magna. Since there are more of Annona's species in that new dimension, and presumably on other planets, should information about them be added to this page? --Angel Bob (talk) 23:02, 24 June 2015 (CEST)

Ordinarily I'd probably disregard what he said (since, as per usual, it's couched in a hypothetical...), but combined with Sahmad's wish of there being more of her/it/whatever, it's an interesting thing to explore. Maybe ask if such beings in Sahmad's wishworld would count as actual members of the species? Skakdi Fusion is so OP... -- Dorek _Talk 01:41, 25 June 2015 (CEST)

Species combinations

Here's something I've been meaning to get around to for some time...

Not too long ago, Greg Farshtey allowed (page 815 of the Chat with Greg Farshtey) the results of a poll on BZP [[1]] that merged The Shadowed One’s species with that of Conjurer, and Ancient’s with that of Tyrant. This was the culmination of some work to decrease the unnamed species list.

Not only was the idea of merging species something many members had been playing with for some time, but in combining them we could increase the significance of the species of Ancient & TSO as well as their home island; show effects/backstory of Ancient's civil war (despite being described as a great war, effects of the Ancient War aren't felt elsewhere in the universe--this would change that); and add extra characterization to Tyrant and Conjurer. By the results of the poll, Ancient's and TSO's species were split (even though they were never merged) and TSO's and Conjuror's species were joined, as were Ancient's and Tyrant's.

Additionally, the following facts which accompanied the poll and proposals were that

1. Tyrant and Conjuror were from TSO's and Ancient's Southern Island homeland originally, but the war on the island whetted their appetites for conquest, so they each left and conquered their own islands, reigning there until they were individually recruited by the Dark Hunters.
2. TSO's and Conjurer's species are related to Krekka's.
3. Characteristics of Ancient's species are their claws and tails.
4. Characteristics of The Shadowed One's species are their third legs. Conjurer's was likely cut off by The Shadowed One as punishment.
5. Interestingly, TSO and Conjurer both have/claim to have powers relating to disintegration, although TSO thinks Conjurer's belong to his staff.

There was quite a bit of conversation going on, and if someone wants me to dig up all the pages worth visiting for this, I will. If this page and the other ones aren't altered to reflect the poll and Greg's approval, I'll probably do it myself. --777stairs (talk) 02:13, 15 May 2016 (CET)

The Greg post in question, for those interested. His response is really hesitant, so I'd say don't add the info--or at least, don't add it until more people chime in. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 02:27, 15 May 2016 (CET)

While he does sound more hesitant there, here, when the idea was set forth, he said he was "personally [did] not see a problem here, if this is something the community wants to do". And anyway, what I meant was that all we would do on this page is reorganize the list, as well as add brief descriptions of the species-much like the rest of the list is set up. All the other information was just information I wanted to throw out there. Sorry for the confusion. --777stairs (talk) 02:57, 15 May 2016 (CET)

(wow are people still doing this) Isn't the biggest issue always that these things that purport to explain the unexplained actually require more fake "facts" in order to justify their own existence? Suddenly Conjurer had a third leg nobody has ever seen but it got cut off because that's what's convenient to make the theory fit?

Weren't Ancient and TSO originally said to be of the same species, making the whole thing moot?

If it's what Greg says (I've long since stopped paying attention to that topic) I'm not going to stop anybody from adding it, but it's completely ridiculous either way. -- Dorek _Talk 07:33, 15 May 2016 (CET)

Okay, I'm really quickly going to answer this:

While Conjurer's third leg is an invented fact simply to get this idea realized, it is not unlikely for it to be cut off. TSO frequently cuts off limbs as punishment to disobedient Hunters (see Time Trap) and considering Conjurer's character and his old plans to take over the DHs, it is not unlikely the same would've happened to him.

Additionally, Ancient and TSO were nowhere confirmed as part of the same species. I've scoured sources and seen nothing of this fact except this page which doesn't seem to have a source. Even TSO's and Ancient's pages mention nothing of this. (And even if they had, popular opinion on BZP said they looked too different to belong to the same.)

But I am genuinely sorry that you disagree with this. I honestly don't intend to do much of this sort of thing in the future, and I probably wouldn't have organized this if it didn't kill several birds with one stone. --777stairs (talk) 14:12, 15 May 2016 (CET)

But Conjurer somehow looks similar enough minus a third leg (and have people been calling that a third leg during these discussions? It's a tail...) in order to be the same as TSO? Minus the face piece (the face often being the part that DOESN'T look similar amongst same species beings!) I don't see much of a resemblance.

Anyway, like I said, if Greg's ultimately agreeing to it, fine. Given how uncomfortable/ambivalent he seemed about it, I would have backed off there, but things have gotten in that way, so it's "canon". Cite it properly, etc. -- Dorek _Talk 14:33, 15 May 2016 (CET)

Very well. I'll also describe the limb as a tail (there was some confusion about that there, too). Differences between the Mata builds and Inika builds are comparable in my opinion, but I can totally see why you feel that way. I also appreciate your feedback; I didn't want to make these changes to BS01 without the approval of a staff member. Thanks again. --777stairs (talk) 14:53, 15 May 2016 (CET)

I think it's best to just not discuss the missing limb on the page at all since we don't know what it is, or if Conjurer actually lost it or not. Could be not all members of the species have it. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 02:20, 16 May 2016 (CET)

I think all of your modifications are compromised, 777stairs: it was clearly stated in the Makuta's Guide to the Universe that TSO and Ancient were part of the same species. And as you wrote it here, combined the four creature's species was an rejected option by the voters.

Honestly, I'm pretty uncomfortable with your methods: considering an evasive answer of GregF as a perfect approval, justifing your lack of sources with a popular opinion (I talk about the TSO/Ancient species, here), ... Don't get me wrong, I consider your theories quite interesting and smart (certainly the most coherent ideas I've read about this "merging species" topic), but there are just that: fan theories. And personnaly, I think they have to remain so. Because, (besides of the creativity's sake) there's nothing more subjective than the individual perception of a character by fans, particularly when these characters have a "LEGO" appareance. For example, TSO and Ancient share some similar and general traits which make me think their membership of a common species is pretty justified, such as their triangular/pyramidal torso and their tail.

Regarding all of that, to impose your thoughts as a canon fact is quite unjustified here, and certainly not of the taste of every Bionicle fan across the world community. Du7734 15:08, 21 May 2016 (CET)

You're right, Du7734 -- Surel-Nuva (Talk) 15:33, 21 May 2016 (CET)

First of all, I'd like to thank you for finding that quote in Makuta's guide. I looked everywhere I could think of for a canon statement that said Ancient was part of TSO's species, and even asked members of BZP if they knew of a place, but aside from this page on this wiki, I knew of no mention of that fact. With that information in mind, I will make the appropriate adjustments shortly.

While there have been several topics [2] [3] on BZPower discussing possible means of combining species, this idea, while the easiest theory to implement, wasn't simply for its own sake. The other major purpose of bringing this idea to fruition was to add greater significance to the civil war on Ancient's home island. If you look at the Matoran Universe, all wars have had their aftermath and ripples through the universe, but Ancient's war was little more than a blip on the radar. It wasn't even responsible for producing the Dark Hunters; the example set by Ancient himself inspired TSO, followed by the success of his business in the resulting war was what ultimately led TSO to set in motion his plans. By adding the exploits of Tyrant and Conjurer as results, it adds greater depth to the story and shows the war's impact on a personal level for individuals involved.

Now, with regards to the initiation of the theory, as I said before, here, after I brought the theory to him, Greg said that he was fine with it if the community was. So the theory was brought to BZPower and set up in a poll by SPIRIT where the community supported it.

Lastly, I have not imposed this theory on this wiki and on the canon. First I asked Greg about it. Then I brought it before the largest dedicated Bionicle forum. When it was approved there, I brought it back to Greg who allowed it. Then I came here and started this very section to ask if I could carry out the necessary changes. Only once I got permission from Dorek did I proceed. If it seems like I'm imposing my theory on this wiki, I sincerely apologize. I have worked to avoid doing just that because I know exactly how irritating it is when someone comes along and tries to assert their headcanons.

All that said... I appreciate your protectiveness to this wiki. To be honest, this is the only change I intend to make with Bionicle canon post-mortem. I wouldn't have pushed for it so hard if it didn't kill several birds with one stone, and all the changes I've made have been to strengthen a few obscure aspects of the world. Of all the changes and decisions the community has ratified with Greg posthumously (looking at you, Gold Good Guy =P), I believe this one is one of the more purposeful. --777stairs (talk) 17:26, 21 May 2016 (CET)

" Greg said that he was fine with it if the community was. So the theory was brought to BZPower and set up in a poll by SPIRIT where the community supported it." --> Sorry, I forgot that the ENTIRE Bionicle community is on BZP. French, Spanish, Russians... Let's change the story of our passion in the name of "The Bionicle Community", who cares about their opinions ? -- Piruk (Talk) 19:09, 21 May 2016 (CET)

I meant the community on BZPower. That repetition of the word "community" was not intended the way you read it. --777stairs (talk) 19:32, 21 May 2016 (CET)

So the BZP community, in the name of a handful of people who vote in the poll give themselves the right to alter the canon. I totally agree Du7734, your headcanons sould stay as a fan creation and not become something official for everyone. That's totally selfish.--Piruk (talk) 19:42, 21 May 2016 (CET)

1. BZP is the largest remaining forum dedicated to Bionicle. A possible exception might be the TTV Messege Boards, but those are a recent development, and things have traditionally been done on BZP; 2. This very process has been going on since Bionicle ended. Are you going to take issue with Gold Good Guy, the Toa Mangai, or the posthumous BZP story contests? 3. Have you not been listening to anything I've been saying? I completely understand why you feel the way you do--I would feel the same way about a lot of things were I in your shoes. When I brought the poll to Greg, I was sure to mention the five voters who disagreed with any canon change. Were it not for the many benefits of such a merger present, I would not have made the move to combine the species. I have dozens of theories and headcanons, but am I inflicting them on Greg? Am I inflicting them on BZP? Am I inflicting them on this wiki? No, I am not. Please do not think I am being selfish.

Piruk, please don't take this the wrong way, but calm down. There's a reason why I created this topic on this talk page. --777stairs (talk) 20:17, 21 May 2016 (CET)

I don't think he is taking your speech wrong, but he wants to point out that BZP fans are not the only important Bionicle fan base in the world. If you take a look yourself at your speech since the begining, you tried to impose a personnal theory thanks to a vague answer. And not only you tried hard, but you fought hard for it as people were explaining that it could not happen. and when you were cornered you found refuge under the BZP community flag, pretending that its number worth its legitimacy. Thus, even if people do appreciate your compassionnate words, that still not makes your idea valid : Greg gave you autorisation if everyone agreed, which is not the case. That said, I do suggest you to think again your common species project before any mere talk.

On the other hand, if you wish to make a vote between the different Bionicle community, you may contact me on Bionifigs.com, I will be glad to start that kind of collaboration, and the other community managers too, no doubt! Pnicful 23:51, 21 May 2016 (CET)

You're welcome, 777stairs.

What kind of "adjustments" are you thinking of? With the TSO/Ancient's species fact, your reorganization seem mostly impossible, regarding the options of the survey. In addition, I recalled that creatures of Tyrant's species are stated as NATIVES of the small island of the south of Odina. I haven’t found the source yet (I will try, even if some exams are on my way, but I've the bad feeling that the source would be in the lost OGD's part), but it's starting to annoy me: before proposing a theory to GregF or for a survey, it's an absolute necessity to make sure this theory have no contradiction at all with the canon. And even if some informations are poorly referenced, that does not allow us to neglect them and go on with the theory, as you apparently made with the TSO/Ancient fact, sooner in this discussion. If it's written somewhere on this reliable wiki, that necessarily comes from a source. And before continuing anything, this source (or the confirmation that it doesn't exist) has to be found.

I have already understood the benefits you would like to bring with the canonization of this theory. And although I appreciate them, that doesn't make GregF's answers less vague. Here, he seems pretty uncomfortable and uninterested about your proposal. Here, he leaves the decision to the "community". Besides the fact that the word "community" can contain much more than current active fans on BZP (and to affirm the opposite consits of a complete lack of respect for the rest of the fanbase across the world) as Piruk and Pnicful said, since when the canon is up to the community? Every single information canonized through OGD/LMB/contests were approved by a clear-cut and personal answer of GregF: interpretations and preferences don't have to be part of the answer's reception. To take Gold Good Guy and informations about the Toa Mangai (completely pointless and irrelevant for those IMO, since the survey was driven by preferences as "A Ko-Toa with a Kaukau would be cool!" (nevertheless, I think it's still a cool idea on its own), and the fact that Toa can change their Kanohi whenever they want (especially when you're near of Ta-Metru's smitheries)) as examples, answers were quite categorical and left no doubt nor need of interpretation. On the contrary, the answer to your proposal left the canonization of informations (which contradict apparently other informations, already canon) at the will of the "community": it isn't serious at all; nothing like that have ever been canonized and should never be.

Thus, regarding the reasons that I developed in this message, you're factually imposing your ideas, willingly or not, since they have less and less objective and well-founded justifications (because of apparent contradictions with the canon and unsatisfactory answers from GregF). Nevertheless, don't think I’m trying to persecute you, 777stairs. You said I'm protective with BS01: It's half true. My protectiveness goes to the Bionicle canon and its diffusion, regardless of the media/website. I love BS01 as I love the Nuvepadia, the French wiki dedicated to Bionicle where I'm a deputy administrator. But in the end, all that matters is their content. And this content was enriched and organized through GregF's answers, and then written down by all the contributors of these wikis. We are not decision makers in this process, but just fans who want to archive official informations about our passion.

Finally, I would like to talk about surveys. International votes could be ideal, regarding to the every communities in the world. But I don't think we can organize such a thing. Plus, I'm personaly uncomfortable with these spontaneous polls: it feels to me as if we force GregF's hand through the power of number. This is a thing we should stop, IMO. Du7734 14:54, 24 May 2016 (CET)

Don't worry, I know you aren't trying to persecute me. I completely understand why you're arguing what you are as you've explained your arguments very well. Now...

The poll itself consisted of three individual parts; the first involving Conjurer's and TSO's species merger, the second involving Tyrant's and Ancient's species merger, the third involving the merger of all four. The third part was built on the pillar idea that TSO and Ancient weren't confirmed as the same species which didn't see anyone object to until now. As such, that third part can be made void and the option remains open. While I preferred having TSO and Ancient as separate species, as you point out, that's impossible because of Makuta's Guide. As such, I will once again take that to Greg for permission. That is what I mean by adjustments.

Now, regarding my research. First of all, this wiki isn't always foolproof. Often sources can be interpreted differently based on the reader. MGttU aside, one could very easily see why one would imply Ancient and TSO were the same species. However, aside from the one sentence in MGttU, this is not stated. I agree that it is necessary to make certain no contradiction exists with canon. As such, I scoured the Bionicle Encyclopedia Updated, Dark Hunters, even re-read the books and story serials. I looked everywhere I could think of for a source for BS01's statement that the two belonged to the same, but I couldn't find it. I even asked people if they knew of a source for that fact, but they didn't know. Even Greg, who I've been told (though I can't confirm this) checks resources before making a reply, didn't say anything. As far as I was aware, I had confirmation it did not exist. Obviously a footnote for the source of this specific fact would've helped, but for obvious reasons, it would be too tedious to apply footnotes for every single fact on the wiki. I never intentionally neglected anything, and if I had, I would've fixed the theory appropriately.

Returning to the subject of reader/wiki fallibility, one example of this would be Tyrant and the "NATIVES" idea you bring up. Thankfully, he is only seen in the Bionicle Encyclopedia Updated and Dark Hunters. Tyrant's backstory is never mentioned in the Encyclopedia but in Dark Hunters, the people are only referred to once as "his subjects" and once as "they". Not only is Tyrant not stated to be a member of their species, but even if he is, for all we know, they could be immigrants/refugees from his home as well (although I have no intention of determining this). However, before I changed Tyrant's page, this wiki referred to them both as natives of their island and members of Tyrant's species, both of which were only ever implications made by interpreters.

Now, I don't claim to know what was going on in Greg's mind when he was making his reply (nor should anyone else) but, Greg never strikes me as acting uncomfortable or hesitant. Ambivalent, yes, but only because he fears getting "ripped for canonizing" it and doesn't feel that it's "important" enough to through his full weight behind, especially in light of various unforgiving members of the community. However, as you were doing in your reply, you can't take out the Gold Good Guy/Toa Mangai/Kanohi switching things because they have happened. I'm not saying these facts approved by him are always good things in my own opinion, but he has still gone through with them.

Finally, Greg has been satisfied in the past when "community" refers to BZPower. Otherwise the Toa Mangai things wouldn't have passed. While it would be nice to round up all the Bionicle fans on the internet and have them take the poll, it's impossible. Additionally, having canon left up to the community is nothing new; there have been countless story contests where members of the community introduce new facts and concepts. The Dark Hunters contest itself allowed fans to create their entries' backstories. While contests aren't entirely the same, they are excellent examples of times canon information was left up to the community. Besides, as I have said before, this is the one and only thing I intend to carry out. I will not repeat this for anything else. --777stairs (talk) 22:07, 27 May 2016 (CET)

"While it would be nice to round up all the Bionicle fans on the internet and have them take the poll, it's impossible" At least, you tried ! *Oh, actually. No* Piruk (talk) 16:17, 28 May 2016 (CET)

Should Lariska be Vortixx?

Little information is given on Lariska's species, only that they can wear kanohi masks. Would it not seem possible for Lariska to be a Vortixx? There isn't much information to go against it as far as I can tell other than her armor color, which, wouldn't that be realistically easy to change? Plus many of her traits seem to match pretty well with the Vortixx, like just there physical abilities and such... Just a suggestion if anybody wants to further it.--Tekhnae Raav (talk) 00:04, 14 September 2017 (CET)

Greg confirmed that Lariska is not a Vortixx. (see below) — Surel—Nuva _(Talk) 00:22, 14 September 2017 (CET)

 [font=Verdana"][size=1"][color=#cc9933"]Questions are in bold, comments in yellow...[color=#000000]  

 [b]  

 [/b][/color][color=#000000] [b]1: Is Lariska a Vortixx? [/b]  

1) Everyone on BZP seems to think she is for some reason, but she's not.  

[/color][color=#000000][i][color=#cc9933"]I always thought she was... apparently not.[/color][/i]  

  

 [b]2: Can the Vortixx species be other colors than just black with silver armor? (I remember seeing a green one in comic #24, when Roodaka was telling her tale of climbing "The Mountain.") [/b]  

2) The green one was artistic license so readers could differentiate him from Roodaka in the scene  

Ooops! sorry. I Haven't seen any of Greg's talks.--Tekhnae Raav (talk) 19:56, 14 September 2017 (CET)

Lots of people, myself included, thought Lariska is a Vortixx, but for all our searching Greg never seems to have confirmed that. It's sort of weird we all imagined her the same way. -- Morris the Mata Nui Cow (talk) 18:19, 16 September 2017 (CET)

i also imagined her to be something similar to roodaka. i imagine it has something to do with their somewhat similar personalities in the story and roles they fulfill. Intelligence4 (talk) 22:13, 16 September 2017 (CET)