Talk:Barraki
Issue with the League's origins
Here we have: "In the early days of the universe, the Great Spirit Mata Nui created the Barraki to help him bring order. However, their order came in the form of oppressive dictatorships, and each oppressively presided over their kingdoms.". League of Six Kingdoms has "After the Great Spirit first awakened, he created six prime species of sapient beings and chose one from each to later become rulers of the Matoran Universe in order to maintain peace and harmony throughout the universe. As was pre-ordained, the six beings - Pridak, Kalmah, Takadox, Ehlek, Carapar and Mantax - became Barraki, banding together to form a military pact known as the League of Six Kingdoms to govern territories of the universe. However, the order that the warlords saw fit was conquest, and so one thousand years after being chosen as rulers, the Barraki went about dominating the universe."
Where does this info come from? City of the Lost doesn't have anything like it. The Mutran Chronicles shows Pridak being a Brotherhood agent before deciding to leave and become a conqueror. I found the Updated Encyclopedia and Makuta's guide online too and neither seems to have this. I can't find anything that has Mata Nui choosing these six members of "prime species" to rule the universe. Pridak does claim that they are Mata Nui's "chosen rulers" in TMC, but it's not clear if this is just a boast. It seems that they were six beings who became warlords individually, then banded together in the League, and it's never specific how much they actually controlled before Teridax put them down. CotL has Pridak thinking of himself as "ruler of a small realm", and that he'd become "the undisputed king of one-sixth of the known universe" through the rebellion (not that he was before). In TMC they're clearly powerful enough to extort Rahi from the Brotherhood, but are discussing how to carve up the universe in the future tense. Though the two reference books do state that they ruled "much of" or "almost all" of the universe. TEU also says the league was Pridak's idea.
Is it even clear they're all of different species? Certainly Ehlek is. I found this Greg quote that says they weren't necessarily (and even that he found it unlikely the were), though it's from 2015: https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2013-2017/page744#post12928334 Trolling through the Greg archives, it seems he wasn't consistent on it, but I can't find an explicit "they were different species" quote.
Bottom line, unless I'm missing a source, it seems that we're grossly misrepresenting the origins of the League here. I think the individual pages reflect the sources much better (see Pridak for example) and both this page and the League page should be rewritten. ChroniclerTakanuva (talk) 17:56, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
Did some more digging in the great archives and found this from Greg:"The Barraki species were not created to be rulers, but the LOSK was something Mata Nui made happen and allowed to happen." (https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2008-2010/page2#post66) So that definitely backs up that Mata Nui is behind the League in some way (though I still think we're overstating it), but puts the rub on the "Prime Species" thing, and calls into question how pre-ordained it all was. Also found this: https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page302#post12042 which further questions that the Barraki were special or pre-destined to lead the universe. ChroniclerTakanuva (talk) 18:54, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- The timeline clearly says Mata Nui created their species and put them as rulers as Barraki. You can also find additional information about the barraki with up to date references on the Timeline/History of the Matoran Universe#Era of the League and on their species on the Sapient Species/Unnamed Species#Trivia pages if you're interested.--SurelNuva (Talk) 19:08, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- https://greg.thegreatarchives.com/2003-2008/page235#post9376-line43-46,56 "13. I think you said that Mata-Nui created the Barraki. By that, do you mean he: a. Created their species b. Created them individually c. Gave them their jobs as an efficent way of governing the universe" "All of the above" ~ Wolk (talk) 19:54, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- Good find on the species links. That definitely shows that in '07 Greg said they were different species, so that disproves the 2015 quote. I still don't see anything that says Mata Nui created their species, or that they were special or "prime" in any way. The Greg quote in my second comment also says that the species were not created to be rulers.
- The source behind that part the timeline just says: "Mata Nui creates Barraki. Barraki conquer most of known universe." This certainly backs up the text here on the Barraki page. However, I still think the League page is overstating how pre-destined and pre-ordained it all was, and how special the Barraki or their species were. It definitely also leaves out the agency in the League's creation the Barraki themselves had as seen in the reference books and Mutran Chronicles. We also know that Pridak didn't become a warlord immediately, he spent some time with the Brotherhood, so "95,00 years ago: Mata Nui creates Barraki. Barraki conquer most of known universe." can't be referring to the *literal* creation of the individuals of the Barraki. Our timeline backs this up too. So "Mata Nui Creates Barraki" must be referring to the creation of the League, or their appointment as rulers? But the magazine puts the League formation 1,000 years after this.
- Our timeline also puts the Mutran Chronicles Chapter 2 significantly after all this (87,000 years ago) which I wonder what that's based on, as the chapter itself is pretty implicit it's very early in their history, as they haven't even "carved up" the universe yet (but why would they need to carve it up if they conquered it separately *then* formed the League). ChroniclerTakanuva (talk) 20:16, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oops had an edit conflict. Thanks Wolk, that definitely clears up that Mata Nui created them and their species. But that can't be at the "95,000 years ago: Mata Nui creates Barraki" point since Pridak is active before then. ChroniclerTakanuva (talk) 20:17, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- I'm still not seeing anything special or about the species or pre-ordained about the individuals though. I still believe those parts of the League page to be inaccurate at least to what I've seen. And I think "Mata Nui creates Barraki" must refer to appointing them, how do you folks take it? ChroniclerTakanuva (talk) 20:20, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- I'd say the page as now written implies that the individual Barraki were created as and were always supposed to be rulers. I don't think the sources back that up. We know that Mata Nui appointed them to be "Barraki" 95,000 years ago, but not if he thought about it beforehand (and I'd maintain, though I don't think it's explicitly backed in the sources, that Pridak at least became a ruler of his own accord). So I'd propose we say just that. Something like *"Mata Nui appointed six beings as Barraki warlords to rule and bring order to the universe. However, their order came in the form of oppressive dictatorships."* (it can stop there, the second half of the second sentence is just repetitive.)
- Then the quoted section of the League page needs to be totally re-written because it both contains errors about the specialness of the species and the pre-destination of the whole affair, and also presents a completely different chronology to what's stated here (it presents the formation of the league before any conquest). ChroniclerTakanuva (talk) 21:00, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, I made an edit to the League page that I think reflects this discussion (plus some other reordering of how points are brought up - eg. it wasn't clear that Takadox was informing on the League from the beginning). The individual pages for the Barraki seem pretty clear of any of the "prime species" stuff - was that a prevalent theory in 07? There's definitely still ambiguity in when they conquered and divided the universe (outside of the magazine spread, I'd have thought it implied that the League was formed before they went on the major conquest - or else how does TMC Chapter 2 make sense?) but that's just the nature of the sources. ChroniclerTakanuva (talk) 22:43, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- Any thoughts on the 87,000 ya for The Mutran Chronicles Chapter 2? I'm sure it's based on *something* like a Greg quote, I'll do some digging. But it's silly in the context of the story which seems to take place very early in the League's reign, not 7,000 years laterChroniclerTakanuva (talk) 22:52, 4 March 2024 (UTC)