BIONICLEsector01 talk:Articles for Deletion

Template:SkullRaiderNav

I probably should have nominated this before merging it, but as you can see in Template:SkullCreaturesNav, the Skull Raiders and Skull Army can easily fit into the same navbox. I don't think we need separate templates. --Angel Bob (talk) 20:02, 14 August 2016 (CET)

Delete

1. --Angel Bob (talk) 20:02, 14 August 2016 (CET)
2. --777stairs (talk) 20:14, 14 August 2016 (CET)
3. Because the pages have already been merged, we need to delete the Template:SkullRaiderNav. --Surel-Nuva (Talk) 20:43, 14 August 2016 (CET)
4. Master Inika ^(Talk) 04:42, 5 October 2016 (CET)

Earth Tribe

So I noticed that the Earth Tribe article and the Element Lord of Earth entry on the Element Lords page have apparently been deleted, but don't recall seeing anything on the page indicating that such a measure had been voted upon. Anyone know what prompted this?--Wiriamu (talk) 22:53, 19 August 2016 (CET)

Thwasn'tarth Tribe" was the placeholder name for the Iron Tribe -- Surel-Nuva (Talk) 00:10, 20 August 2016 (CET)

Since it isn't canon anyway, I don't see a reason to keep it. --777stairs (talk) 23:46, 19 August 2016 (CET)

Yeah, I suppose that discussion went by pretty quickly, didn't it? I nominated Earth Tribe for deletion on the basis that it conflicts with previously established canon (namely, there being only seven tribes and six Element Lords), with the intent that we would vote on it. Dorek made the executive decision that this wasn't a discussion for typical AfD voting - to paraphrase his words, if it's not canon, it should be automatically deleted. So we had a discussion on Talk:Earth Tribe, and when we came to the conclusion that it wasn't canon, Dorek deleted the page (and Surel-Nuva and I purged all related information from other pages). Does that clear it up? --Angel Bob (talk) 01:01, 20 August 2016 (CET)

I was under the impression that their existence was revealed via Greg's Chat thing-are we no longer counting that as a source of canon material?--Wiriamu (talk) 05:50, 20 August 2016 (CET)

Not if there are preexisting canon sources that contradict it. In this case, there were; pretty much every 2009 source says, very rigidly, that there were only six Element Lords and seven (later six) tribes. --Angel Bob (talk) 06:14, 20 August 2016 (CET)

Yeah, I just went to the Iron Tribe page and found the link to a statement from Greg saying that the Earth thing was just a placeholder. I knew that it had been said that there were six Element Lords, but it wouldn't be the first time things have been retconned and I figured there could have been an alternative explanation for why the Earth Lord wasn't mentioned. Well, there goes that I suppose-I'm actually partway through writing a fic where I included the Element Lord of Earth and his tribe on the assumption that they were canon.--Wiriamu (talk) 06:35, 20 August 2016 (CET)

Well, no one's stopping you from continuing it! Frankly, the Earth Tribe was a cool idea, and I would be in favor of it if it didn't clash with canon o badly. --Angel Bob (talk) 06:40, 20 August 2016 (CET)

I appreciate that my friend-I believe you already know where said fiction can be found on BZPower.--Wiriamu (talk) 05:39, 17 September 2016 (CET)

But Greg says that the Earth tribe does indeed exist in the official canon? I asked him a couple days ago... Just because Earth Tribe was a place holder doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Maybe we should take this to greg? --WOLKsite (talk) 15:07, 26 September 2016 (CET)

No, we absolutely should not, because it would be just time-wasting for we've got the answer posted by him a couple of years ago. Look: [1]. --Surel-Nuva (Talk) 15:44, 26 September 2016 (CET)

That was in 2009, and the retcon, as I recall it being, happened after 2009. The Earth Tribe would not have been mentioned on Bara Magna since the vast majority was on Bota Magna and would barely have been mentioned in the Core War since they were peaceful during the Core War. --WOLKsite (talk) 22:39, 26 September 2016 (CET)

The idea that they were peaceful during the war was an excuse made up by Greg to cover his tracks, because the man is incapable of admitting mistakes. --Angel Bob (talk) 02:51, 27 September 2016 (CET)

Doesn't make it non-canon. Both DC and Marvel have done the same thing. It's difficult from a writets perspective to explain why something wasn't mentioned in the past. G2 didn't even try, and I think that is worse. But anyways... --WOLKsite (talk) 08:36, 27 September 2016 (CET)

Have you forgotten that the G1 BIONICLE is over, so does the G2, but DC & Marvel are still running? A cancelled line doesn't need information without anything behind. The Earth Tribe had no real/official information, the others were just special kind of theory, from the fans. In the storyline, the Earth Tribe had no role, just to distract the original story (all sources says that there were 6 Element Lords, 7 tribes). -- Surel-Nuva (Talk) 16:26, 27 September 2016 (CET)

So, looks like this has caught Gregs attention... https://community.lego.com/t5/LEGO-General/Chat-with-Greg-Farshtey/td-p/6605180/page/863 The posted the farthest down on the page. Just wanted to put this here... --WOLKsite (talk) 16:49, 28 September 2016 (CET)

We will consider the Earth Tribe canon after Greg revealed them with their dark story. -- Surel-Nuva (Talk) 17:14, 28 September 2016 (CET)

Oh god, a "dark story" he's going to "reveal soon"... that doesn't exactly fill me with confidence. He sounds uncomfortably like a certain someone who's been dominating the news. Still - as long as he doesn't introduce an Element Lord of Earth, it will be easier to reconcile with established canon, and I won't oppose it. --Angel Bob (talk) 20:16, 28 September 2016 (CET)

Were you the one who deleted the page, Surel-Nuva? If it was you, did you even read a single line of the page? You said there wasn't an official confirmation, but literally on the first line there was a reference that led to the post on page 329 of Chat With Greg Farshtey in wich he confirmed the Earth Tribe's existance. I don't want to sound rude, but deleting a page without even reading it is kind of a dumb idea.

BTW, for Angel Bob, GregF had already confirmed that the Earth Tribe had an EL in the post that I mentioned earlier.

I wasn't. Dorek was the one, who deleted the page, as it was mentioned earlier... and after the BIONICLE 5 was cancelled, the Earth Tribe was confirmed to be the placeholder name for Sahmad's Tribe which is the Iron Tribe. (Also, I cannot delete pages.) -- Surel-Nuva (Talk) 21:53, 28 September 2016 (CET)

I know about the fifth movie, but I don't see how that changes anything. Greg said the Earth Tribe was canon after a fan's suggestion. Just because it was originally a scrapped idea doesn't mean that Greg can't decide to make it canon later as he did.

If Greg reveal their dark story (which could be different than what the fans got him to canonize earlier), the Earth Tribe will be in this wiki, but until then, everything is fine like this. (And there's a chance that their dark story is that they had never existed, they're only just a fictional tribe...) -- Surel-Nuva (Talk) 15:02, 29 September 2016 (CET)

Greg has told us before as well that if there are previous facts contradicting a new answer/canonization, then people should go with what exists prior. In this case, aside from Earth being a placeholder, all of the lore says there are 7 tribes and 6 element lords, specifically. Adding in a new one really didn't make sense. -- Dorek _Talk 19:25, 29 September 2016 (CET)

Thank you! -- Surel-Nuva (Talk) 19:26, 29 September 2016 (CET)

But there's a difference between, for example, Greg saying that the Kakama that belonged to a Toa Mangai wasn't Naho's, then later saying it is, and adding an entire new tribe to the story. The first example is him not remembering a certain detail about a minor character, the other one is him consciously retconning a part of the story to add a new group of people. It wasn't an error. And you could make the argument that it was, but consider this post: https://community.lego.com/t5/LEGO-General/Chat-with-Greg-Farshtey/m-p/14239646/highlight/true#M308806 . Even though the question was on different topic, I think what he says applies to this one as well. Basically we would have (probably) still seen this new stuff had the serials been finished. What makes me think he may already have at least had the idea in mind before he had to stop writing the serials, is that, prior to the reveal back in 2014, he said that there were other tribes we hadn't seen in story in this post (question 8): https://community.lego.com/t5/LEGO-General/Chat-with-Greg-Farshtey/m-p/9939645/highlight/true#M234477 . And when he answered the question on whether the Earth Tribe was one of those tribes or not, the poster even mentioned the fiffh movie. And retcons have happened before, so I don't see how we shouldn't count tgat as canon. Plus, with this new "dark story" the only thing that was retconned, Journey's End's prologue, will probably be re-canonized.

Just to clarify - I am both the person who initially "canonized" the Earth Tribe and the one who pushed for its removal more recently. Frankly, I think the idea of the Earth Tribe existing by itself is all fine and dandy - there could be many reasons they weren't mentioned in the six/seven tribe lineup and not fought in the war, that's all fine. It was the idea that they had an Element Lord that clashed so horrifically with everything that had ever been said in previous canon. If Greg gives an origin that explains why the tribe wasn't mentioned, and either excludes an Element Lord of Earth or gives a really good explanation as to why they were never mentioned (maybe they died?), I'm down for including it. Otherwise, it just clashes too badly. --Angel Bob (talk) 07:06, 30 September 2016 (CET)

Honestly, this whole thing is a hot mess. G1 is, and has been, over. The whole "dark story" thing that Greg's going to reveal just sounds fishy to me. I think the earth tribe's existence is disproven by the standing rule that if something "new" is contradicted by a canon source from when G1 was running, then the first canon source takes precedence - and we know from canon that there were only 7 tribes and 6 ELs. I think Greg's "canonization" of the earth tribe, in this instance, can be labeled as a "forgetcon".

Plus, there was the thing that on spherus/bara magna, sand was the element that replaced earth - or rather, in the matoran universe, earth replaced sand. we should honestly just leave this well enough alone. Intelligence4 (talk) 16:32, 3 October 2016 (CET)

Hey, Angel Bob, could you please explain what exactly it is about the Earth EL that clashes too badly for you? It makes sense that he didn't appear on Bara Magna as he lived with his tribe on Bota Magna as Greg said to you when he canonized the tribe here, and wouldn't have had any reason to be on the desertic part of Spherus Magna during the Shattering. There could be a hundred possible reasons that he didn't appear in All Our Sins Remembered, so really the only thing this EL would clash with is the prologue of Journey's End (you can find more on that in this post), but, again, there might have been many reasons Angonce didn't mention the Earth Tribe, wich are going to be revealed with this "dark story". It doesn't really contradict canon, so, is there something I missed that would be contradicted by the tribe's existance?

And for Intelligence4, the fact that G1 has ended doesn't mean its universe can't be expanded a little. Again, the Earth Tribe doesn't go against any canon source (that I know of). The story never said there were only 7 tribes and 6 ELs. Just because we only saw, that those doesn't mean that there can't be other ones. Also, Greg revealing the tribe's existance wasn't a forgetcon. On the LMBs, he was asked if there were any tribes we hadn't seen in story and he said there were. Then Angel Bob proposed to him the idea that the tribe that was going to appear in the cancelled fith movie as the plague tribe, the Earth Tribe, was one of those, and he said it was, and gave a little bit of information on them. How is that a forgetcon? And, what do you mean by "Sand was the element that replaced earth - or rather, in the matoran universe, earth replaced sand"?