Talk:Kaukau Nuva

Immoral Kanohi

It can be used to suffocate enemies by sharing its power, although Toa consider that to be immoral.

I might read that wrong, but that doesn't seem to mean it's an immoral Kanohi. There's an use that is considered immoral, not the full mask.

--maxim21 21:10, 7 December 2014 (CET)

I'm sure every mask could have an immoral use. I don't think this should be considered an immoral mask. --Boidoh (talk) 21:40, 7 December 2014 (CET)

Application

Maybe I'm overthinking this, but wouldn't using a Kaukau Nuva to suffocate others invariably apply the same effect to users (rendering the whole concept relatively useless)? Or can bearers exempt themselves when sharing mask power?

Witch (talk) 9:13, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

They can activate the mask's power while they are underwater and share with those who aren't, but near them.--Surel (Talk) 09:58, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Unlimited Duration

I have no idea why ToaKebaka removed the note explaining the situation about earlier material stating the Kaukau Nuva had unlimited duration as being incorrect and why the page, rightfully so, sided with later material, including the BEU, and Greg's comment on the matter. If it is because the quote used is considered a 'non-answer,' it is not. While Greg did say he was unaware of any official material stating that it was unlimited and was wrong in that, he also said "if it says that in the Encyclopedia, then that is the case." This implicitly suggests that, if there were discrepancies between published sources, whatever is in the BEU is to be sided with. This makes even more sense considering the alternative goes against what we know about Kanohi generally, being limited in duration and concentration.

EDIT: ToaKebaka, I would appreciate that you used the edit summaries and talk pages more effectively, so that edit wars like this do not occur in the future. With that said, I do not think you are being honest with the sources. You can't view them as independent statistical points and ignore the ones you believe are outliers (which you provided no metric as to how you determine that), as if they weren't all written by the same man. The same man who wrote Bionicle 8 that says the mask is unlimited, was also later consistent on his wording about "longer duration" and it not actually being unlimited. It seems clear that there was simply a change to how the mask functions. Dag (talk) 01:45, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

You're taking everything here far too literally, and ignoring the context

Firstly, he says "if it says that in the Encyclopedia, that is the case," after saying "I don't know where [BS01] got that from]", because he asked where the user got the info from and they just said it was from BS01. He is NOT saying that if there is a discrepancy, then the BEU is to be sided with; he is citing the BEU as a possible source of info. He himself says he doesn't remember that being stated, so he just cites the most complete source of info, the Encyclopedia.

Second, let's assume for a moment that that IS what he meant. The Encyclopedia says it allows the user to stay under longer. The comic says it allows the user to stay underwater for an unlimited time. There is no discrepancy here. "Unlimited" is longer than "limited", as ToaKebaka said.

Third, yes, Greg states that every mask is limited in duration. That is because every mask will eventually run out of power. No mask can be used for forever. However, some masks, like the Kaukau, have a time limit to their usage. The Kaukau Nuva does NOT. You can use it to breath underwater until the mask runs out of energy. Greg himself literally replies to the question right before the one that is cited, that actually asks about the Kaukau Nuva, saying "masks run out of power eventually, it just takes a long time."

So no, the earlier published material is NOT incorrect. It simply doesn't mention the fact that the mask will run out of power eventually, like all masks do, so it's not technically infinite. But it is unlimited in the sense that it does not have a time limit, like the regular Kaukau does. That is EXPLICITLY stated in published material, contradicted nowhere, and it's not even worth a note to say "well technically if you want to be pedantic it won't last forever because no mask lasts forever, so TECNICALLY the published material is incorrect." --Willess12 (talk) 01:17, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

"You're taking everything here far too literally, and ignoring the context"

No, I don't believe that I am. To put it in context, Greg says:

"I don't believe we have stated it to be limitless, for either mask. If we have somewhere, then cite me the source and I will see what it says."

This tells me that Greg wanted to know 1) which source specifically it came from and 2) what it said, and that he would look it over. Then, when the person asking the question said they didn't have the source, only that it was on BS01, Greg replies:

"Well, without knowing where they got that, I can't comment. If it says that in the Encyclopedia, then that is the case."

Greg couldn't comment because he didn't know where the claim came from. He then gave what it seems he meant to give as a general rule of thumb for situations like this, which is "if it says that in the Encyclopedia, then that is the case." Sure, perhaps if Greg had known that it was said to be unlimited in one of the comics, his answer may have been different, but that would be total speculation on our part. Although I don't have a specific Greg quote on hand right now, the Tiers of Canonicity (which Greg approved) say "in cases where sources within this tier [Books, comics, and, more broadly, any officially published material written by Greg Farshtey] contradict, later sources take precedence over earlier ones, as they presumably represent a change in the story team's view of canon." It's also BS01's traditional view (unless this has recently changed), that material closer to the end of the story (2010-2011) takes precedence. Either way, BEU would trump Comic 8, even without attempting to interpret this Greg quote.

"Second, let's assume for a moment that that IS what he meant. The Encyclopedia says it allows the user to stay under longer. The comic says it allows the user to stay underwater for an unlimited time. There is no discrepancy here. 'Unlimited' is longer than 'limited', as ToaKebaka said."

And as I said, "A change in wording implies a change to the mask. If the sources that say 'longer' meant 'unlimited,' they would've said 'unlimited.'"

"Third, yes, Greg states that every mask is limited in duration. That is because every mask will eventually run out of power."

Technically, yes, you are correct that the "duration" is because of the mask's power eventually running out, but Greg also suggests that's true of Kanohi generally (quote). In other words, a sufficiently strong user could keep their Kanohi activated for all those years and years until it fully runs out of power. But if that's true of Kanohi generally, which this quote suggests, why is it only stated for the Kaukau Nuva to be unlimited? Either this description is meaningless since it would just be saying the same thing that Greg does of all Kanohi, or it meant that the Kaukau Nuva is literally limitless in duration, never running out of power. Dag (talk) 02:06, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

"He then gave what it seems he meant to give as a general rule of thumb for situations like this, which is "if it says that in the Encyclopedia, then that is the case.""

That doesn't seem like a general rule of thumb. It seems like, without having any idea where it came from, he took his best guess, citing the BEU because it was supposed to have ALL the info on everything. He's certainly not saying "if there's a discrepancy, use the BEU" because no one even said there was a discrepancy. And again, it's a non-issue, because there is no discrepancy here.

"A change in wording implies a change to the mask. If the sources that say 'longer' meant 'unlimited,' they would've said 'unlimited.'"

Except it is a change in wording that means absolutely nothing. Unlimited time IS a longer duration. The Encyclopedia literally says the same thing as the comic, just in a different way.

"why is it only stated for the Kaukau Nuva to be unlimited?"

Because the Kaukau itself is limited. This should be obvious. The Nuva masks are meant to be upgrades of the regular masks. How is the Kaukau Nuva an upgrade? Well, it can allow you to go deeper and it doesn't have a time limit. Greg also cites this as the way that a Noble Kaukau is less powerful: it has an even shorter time limit.--Willess12 (talk) 02:20, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

"That doesn't seem like a general rule of thumb. It seems like, without having any idea where it came from, he took his best guess, citing the BEU because it was supposed to have ALL the info on everything."

For the sake argument, okay, sure. That still doesn't negate the standards of TGA and BS01 siding with later material in situations such as this.

"Except it is a change in wording that means absolutely nothing."

If that were true, then there wouldn't be a change at all, yes?

"Because the Kaukau itself is limited."

Limited in what way? Where is it said that the Kaukau has a time limit apart from simply running out of power after years and years? The BEU just says "an extended period of time," which is vague enough that it could go either way. If it's not said to have some other defined time limit, then it's just as that Greg quote said, Kanohi duration is simply from them running out of power, but a sufficiently strong will could make any mask "unlimited." If that's all that is meant by the Kaukau being limited, then it would be just as unlimited as the Kaukau Nuva or any other Kanohi. As with the Mask of Clairvoyance, I think I'm going to step away from this issue and see what others have to say. Dag (talk) 02:51, 24 April 2024 (UTC)